Have you guys heard?
Surely you have. Anyway if you are an atheist and have commented (more than once) on Ray's blog you can get a free $25 voucher for a dinner out with your wife/friend at red Lobster. Go to his blog for more details.
Good on you Ray!
Reading through some replies to Ray's post on this topic. I find it interesting that people respond well to a $25 gift voucher and yet mock Someone giving His life for our lives. Hmmmmm
Yeshua deserves a clap...or even...our own lives.
Dan
The difference, Dan, as I'm sure you are well aware, is that food is real.
ReplyDeleteThis is certainly an act of generosity and I don't think anyone has a problem with someone who goes out of their way to help out their fellow man in ways that we can all recognize and appreciate.
Trying to compare that with a faith-based assertion about what the Bible claims about Jesus dying for the sins of mankind is rather silly.
I can prove that I'm hungry and I can show that I don't have the money to buy lobster. I can also show that eating lobster eases my hunger - these are all 'real-world' things.
You can't prove that 'sin' exists or that Jesus defeated death to deliver you from sin or that believing that he did do this delivers you from (the also unproven) Hell.
You'll also note from the responses that most people are recognizing the generosity but are not taking him up on his offer. Check out the 'Fish with Trish' blog posts where she offers free stuff - Christians come crawling out of the woodwork to stake their claim!
I'm not saying this proves anything, I just find it interesting. I think that Ray actually owes some of the atheists a meal because they've written his last two books for him!
Hey Matt,
ReplyDelete"Trying to compare that with a faith-based assertion about what the Bible claims about Jesus dying for the sins of mankind is rather silly."
Well consider the following...no food is real to you unless you have got it in your hand. Many athiests consistantly call Ray a liar yet trust him to give them money for food.
The food is not real to them until they have it and received it from Ray.
The same is with God. Until you accept Him as Lord of your life and respect Him for who He is you will not experience the "reality" of Him.
(A side note...in the end every knee shall bow and experience God for better or for worse)
You won't know until you accept Him by faith and trust Him. Same with Ray...the so called "liar", atheists trust him by faith and yet they don't trust him.
"You'll also note from the responses that most people are recognizing the generosity but are not taking him up on his offer. Check out the 'Fish with Trish' blog posts where she offers free stuff - Christians come crawling out of the woodwork to stake their claim!"
I find it an interesting thing "staking their claim". I say good on them. One of the most annoying things is when you try to give someone something (and you really want to bless them) and yet they refuse! They cannot humble themselves enough to accept a gift.
I find this even in Christians. It is a Christian's delight to give, yet when no one is willing to receive then no one can give. :( Sad.
(I once tried to give a little old lady...darling she is... my Hebrew teacher a simple bunch of flowers and what a mission it was to make sure she took it without feeling bad about it!)
"I think that Ray actually owes some of the atheists a meal because they've written his last two books for him!"
When you say "written" do you mean: wrote his words or gave him something to write about?
If you mean gave him something to write about then I could turn around and say the same thing about Richard Dawkins. Without theists he wouldn't have any atheist books. He owes us a meal! LOL :)
God Bless,
Dan
Da Bomb,
ReplyDelete"Well consider the following...no food is real to you unless you have got it in your hand. Many atheists consistently call Ray a liar yet trust him to give them money for food.".
Erm, food is real. We've all eaten it, we know what it is and we are all familiar with the concept of giving a food voucher, there is no real trust involved.
Atheists call Ray a liar because he demonstrably and repeatedly lies about things. This does not mean that everything he says is a lie (although I believe there is a Bible verse that indicates that someone who lies a little will lie a lot...) - just the stuff where he is lying!
Actually, reading through the first part of your comment, it makes no sense whatsoever - it's really confusing as to what you're trying to say.
I'll spell out the position, as I see it, so we're clear.
Ray lies. He lies about science and he lies about atheists. If you want examples, just ask.
When Ray lies, the atheists call him out on it (it is noticeable that none of the Christians ever do this). Ray generally ignores these responses and repeats the lie sometime later.
When Ray gets something right, the atheists congratulate and encourage him.
When he makes a generous gesture, like giving away a food voucher during a recession, the atheists give him credit because it's due.
This is called fairness.
None of this has any bearing on the existence or not of God.
"When you say "written" do you mean: wrote his words or gave him something to write about?".
You haven't read his latest book, have you? A substantial portion of it is made up of atheists' comments lifted right off his blog.
Richard Dawkins writes about the 'concept' of theism, he doesn't copy huge passages of work by theists and then ignore the substance of the comment to make a snide remark (like Ray does)
You may not have seen it. But for a short while, Ray had a post up, asking if he could use the giving away of the free meal as part of his newsletter; after expressly saying that this wasn't a PR stunt. When some atheists questioned this, he just took the post down and never mentioned it again.
Ray is a con-man and while he almost certainly has a solid belief in God, it does nothing to keep him honest.
Regards,
Matt
Hey there,
ReplyDelete"Erm, food is real. We've all eaten it, we know what it is and we are all familiar with the concept of giving a food voucher, there is no real trust involved."
"Actually, reading through the first part of your comment, it makes no sense whatsoever - it's really confusing as to what you're trying to say."
Sorry I thought I was clear, maybe I can give the general idea I am getting across:
I could promise to give you anything I like but until you experience it, it is not real TO you. You must take my word by faith that you will receive that "reality" of food.
With God even though some may not directly believe in everlasting life yet...if we take His word by faith then you will receive "His reality" of eternal life and freedom from sin and guilt.
I hope you are getting the comparison?
Just because you don't believe in something does not mean it is not real. There are many stars that exist that we don't know about but our non-belief does not alter the fact that they are there.
If we seek them out we could find them...just as seeking God out we can find Him and many know to have found Him.
"Ray lies. He lies about science and he lies about atheists. If you want examples, just ask."
Ok, what are they?
Lahet-Raot!
Dan
"I could promise to give you anything I like but until you experience it, it is not real TO you. You must take my word by faith that you will receive that "reality" of food."Yes, but it doesn't take any faith for me to believe that food actually exists, does it?
ReplyDelete"Just because you don't believe in something does not mean it is not real."Just because you don't believe in Zeus, doesn't mean he doesn't exist, right?
Of course it doesn't. But the question is, is there a good reason to believe in the thing that you have no evidence for?
The lies of Ray Comfort:
* An atheist is someone who believes that nothing created everything
* Evolutionists believe that gravity evolved
* Richard Dawkins believes that aliens seeded life on Earth
* "Evolution believers erroneously believe that all of creation (millions of kinds), by themselves, came into being as male and female, and then gave themselves the ability to reproduce after their own kind."
* "Let me repeat what the experts said, in case you missed it. Titaalik "is technically a fish, complete with scales and gills," and it has an unusual head that looks like a crocodile. Big deal. This has nothing at all to do with the theory of evolution or species-to-species transitional forms. It’s a fish, and God has created thousands of other fish with strange heads"
[the article that Ray is quote-mining from actually said; "Those fins and a suite of other characteristics set Tiktaalik apart as something special; it has a combination of features that show the evolutionary transition between swimming fish and their descendants, the four-legged vertebrates"]
* Dogs were blind until they evolved eyes
These are just the ones I can remember from recent blog postings - he's been doing the same for years though.
He also wrote in one of his books that you should never seek treatment for cancer because it is a chastisement from God, in fact, you should pray that it continues until you are suitably 'chastised'. Dude, the guy's off his trolly!
Cheers,
Hey Matt,
ReplyDeleteOk the analogy of food and faith is getting thrashed. Its not worth arguing as it gets none of us anywhere...it was a passing thought :)
I started by meaning: it was sad that SOME people MOCK something good (if true) that God has done (Jesus dying for our sins) and yet leap for food and praise Ray for giving them $25.
Ray's lies:
"An atheist is someone who believes that nothing created everything"
He probably takes this from the knowledge or understanding that the universe has been shown to have a beginning. I think he quotes Hawking about that.
*"Evolutionists believe that gravity evolved"
That may be his understanding of what evolutionists would have to believe if everything formed itself. Of course "evolved" would be a different use here.
"Richard Dawkins believes that aliens seeded life on Earth"
He is obviously wrong about that but he may have misunderstood or been mislead.
"Evolution believers erroneously believe that all of creation (millions of kinds), by themselves, came into being as male and female, and then gave themselves the ability to reproduce after their own kind."
came into being...ability to reproduce. Is this not what evolutionists believe?...that everything formed by itself.
"Let me repeat what the experts said, in case you missed it. Titaalik "is technically a fish, complete with scales and gills," and it has an unusual head that looks like a crocodile. Big deal. This has nothing at all to do with the theory of evolution or species-to-species transitional forms. It’s a fish, and God has created thousands of other fish with strange heads"
[the article that Ray is quote-mining from actually said; "Those fins and a suite of other characteristics set Tiktaalik apart as something special; it has a combination of features that show the evolutionary transition between swimming fish and their descendants, the four-legged vertebrates"]"
I can't comment on that.
"Dogs were blind until they evolved eyes"
He is obviously not actually meaning that. He is arguing against the principle of evolution...where and how did eyes evolve? There are difficulties.
You said: "He also wrote in one of his books that you should never seek treatment for cancer because it is a chastisement from God, in fact, you should pray that it continues until you are suitably 'chastised'. Dude, the guy's off his trolly!"
I hope you misunderstood what he was saying...I agree with you that that is somewhat weird.
Cya,
Dan
OK Dan.
ReplyDeleteI thought we could have a reasonable discussion where evidence and well-supported argumentation would be appreciated and we'd each follow the evidence where it leads.
But this?
You're just hand-waving!
1st one.
He has been told repeatedly by atheists that they do not believe that everything was created by nothing. He ignores them (implicitly calling them liars, by the way) and repeats this statement as if it is a valid definition of an atheist. It is quite clearly NOT a definition of an atheist. He's lying.
2nd one.
Nobody (except maybe Creationists) believes that 'everything formed itself' and Ray arbitrarily throws around the word evolution as if it has no meaning whatsoever. He has been told that evolution has nothing to do with gravity and that no scientist thinks this, but he ignores these corrections and continues making this untrue statement. He is lying.
3rd one.
'he may have misunderstood or been mislead.' You see, this is where you're letting the fact that you respect his ministry prevent you from being critical of the guy's musings on science. I posted, for you, Richard Dawkins' explanation of the whole thing and it is clear what his position is, yes? Well that same thing has been posted countless times on Ray's blog and has been explained, in detail, by many people there multiple more times. He continues to assert this falsehood in spite of all this. He is lying.
4th one.
I can't believe you tried to quote-mine that! How dishonest are you?
You include; "came into being" and "ability to reproduce" but leave out; "by themselves", "as male and female" and "gave themselves the ability" - all the bits that are actually wrong!
He's saying that evolutionists believe that each species arrived, fully-formed with one male and one female and that these two individuals have to be very fortunate to meet each other and reproduce, otherwise the whole species dies out.
Again, he has been told that he is incorrect, the correct explanation has been spelled-out for him and yet he still continues to assert this falsehood. He is lying.
5th one.
Why can't you comment on that? It's pretty straightforward, no?
By the way, Ray has recently clarified that what he thinks evolutionary transitions mean is a dog giving birth to a cat or a cow giving birth to a dog. If you can't see that, despite all the information available to him and the correction being given on his blog, he is blatantly misrepresenting evolutionary theory, than you are just as guilty as he is of dishonesty. He's lying.
6th one.
'He is obviously not actually meaning that' Really? You're sure about that?
"...Fortunately for him [the dog], his eyes had evolved to maturity after millions of years of blindness, so that he could see the first female dog that had evolved standing by him." - Ray Comfort (http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/2009/01/atheist-and-first-dog.html)
So what was he 'actually' meaning? Because to me, yet again, he is misrepresenting evolution deliberately. In other words; he's lying.
His Cancer stuff is in a paperback entitled "More than just Comfort" You can find out for yourself if you like.
Dan,
One or two of these occasionally would be understandable. But he does it all the time, in the face of very honest corrections by people who know what he's talking about. It is clear that he feels that evolution is wrong because he believes in Creation and therefore evolution must be wrong - he doesn't care if there is good science to back it up and he'll say anything to ridicule it, even if that means lying through his teeth.
I hope you can see through his deceptions and realize that it doesn't matter that evolution is a well-established fact, it doesn't change the likelihood of God existing one iota.
Don't be fooled into thinking that men of God aren't willing to lie for their faith because they quite clearly are.
You're smarter than that.
Regards,
Matt
About Ray,
ReplyDeleteI do know that he tends to be a guy who exagerates a point...right or wrong he tends to do this. Hey, he is a humorous guy, yet you guys take him literaly on everything. I am not defending him, I will let God be the judge.
"You include; "came into being" and "ability to reproduce" but leave out; "by themselves", "as male and female" and "gave themselves the ability" - all the bits that are actually wrong!"
"by themselves" "gave themselves the ability". Am I misunderstanding evolution or a you picking on terms. According to atheistic evolution NOTHING guided evolution. It just happened by itself.
That is what I and Ray mean. Can you not see that or am I missing something to evolution?
cheers
Dan
"am I missing something to evolution?".
ReplyDeleteYes.
I recommend; 'Why Evolution Is True' by Jerry A. Coyne
Hey Matt,
ReplyDeleteMy understanding of "your evolution",
Millions of years ago life began. Life divided itself and reproduced (I'm ignoring the difficulties of this happening).
As the population grew, rare mutations occured that benefited the population and it got molded into the population.
Millions of years later the same thing happened over and over again. Each time the best fitted to survive with the beneficial mutations survived. The less evolved died more quickly so now we have natural selection which roots out the bad species and better groups of species survive.
(I find it hard to imagine how well-evolved complex creatures die out today but back in the beginning they were less well evolved and yet they survived possibly tougher conditions?)
This happens until we adapt to our surroundings. Accidently really. Took random directions of mutations and yet they fitted nicely.
Have I got the general idea?
Dan
For a given definition of 'general', yes.
ReplyDeleteSort of like me saying;
My understanding of "your God"
So God's like a kind of really clever old guy and He's annoyed with us because He made us wrong?
But if we put our hands together, close our eyes and wish really hard not to be tortured, He'll let us off because he once had a really bad weekend on our behalf.
Have I got the general idea?
You can see that almost all the main elements are there, but it's not quite the full story - that's what I get from your description of evolution.
It really surprises me how reluctant some Christians are to embrace evolution.
If I were a Christian my position would be;
God created everything, knows everything and will end everything.
Science is constantly uncovering the processes that He used to make all this happen.
Evolution is an awe-inspiring, brilliantly elegant way to diversify life; God's a genius.
Mankind was singled out and given a soul/responsibility in order to glorify God because man had the most potential to do this out of all of Creation.
Genesis is a metaphorical story, told by the ancient peoples to explain what they didn't understand and give them a clue as to why things where the way they were (ie, man is in rebellion to God due to our gullibility and curiosity)
I'd have to shape my worldview that way because I'm near 100% convinced that the science behind evolution is solid.
Regards (and have a good weekend)
Matt
Hey again Matt,
ReplyDelete"My understanding of "your God"
So God's like a kind of really clever old guy and He's annoyed with us because He made us wrong?"
Well no, God did not make us wrong. He made us with the ability to choose wrong. How can you have loyalty toward someone without the opportunity to be dis-loyal?
"But if we put our hands together, close our eyes and wish really hard not to be tortured, He'll let us off because he once had a really bad weekend on our behalf."
No, it is more like put our hands together and change our lives into good lives that He wants, trusting in God's sacrifice for us, paying our price that we should have paid. :)
"Have I got the general idea?"
Well not really. I suppose I could call it general but still wrong.
I don't think I said anything "wrong" about evolutionary thinking just maybe a simplified view of it.
"It really surprises me how reluctant some Christians are to embrace evolution."
I could embrace it when I'm convinced of it. You have done more study on it than I and are obviously more convinced.
"If I were a Christian my position would be;
God created everything, knows everything and will end everything.
Science is constantly uncovering the processes that He used to make all this happen."
Yes I would agree with you except for maybe that God "knows" everything. I would say yes this is mostly true although Hebrew10:77 says something interesting: "then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."" That's a cool promise.
"Evolution is an awe-inspiring, brilliantly elegant way to diversify life; God's a genius...."
That's cool, it's your opinion.
"I'd have to shape my worldview that way because I'm near 100% convinced that the science behind evolution is solid."
Thats fine. I don't care whether you believe in evolution or not. God is more important.
I hope you had a good weekend also!
Did you make it to a church? It's only 2 hours a morning or so...not much of a "waste of time" (time wasting in your view I guess) :)
Dan