Just to let you guys know that I understand what you are saying about the goodness of God and I will write exactly what I believe you are saying and the response I will give to it.
You believe that since God knows all things that He is responsible for sending people to hell because He could have made it otherwise but He chose to make the situation where they went to hell. You blame God for making us with the ability to sin and the ability to spend eternity in hell.
You think it is unfair that Adam and Eve sinned and we should inherit their sinful nature. You believe that although we have a freewill and try not to shift the blame, ultimately God is to be blamed because He caused creation to happen which would result in people going to hell.
Am I correct?
The problems you bring up many Christians have often already thought about it before. We are not ignorant fools...we just dis-agree with what you are saying.
What I believe:
I'll start by quoting ND's paragraph from his blog about a dialog between the Godhead because I think it forms a good basis...
A Prelude to the Beginning.
Before this begins, we know that some of you will rebel against us and eventually we will have to banish you from our presence. However, whether you are Ang-el or Adam, you must play out your destiny in order for us to reach the goal. For we desire not to have mindless servants but dedicated and loving companions who desire to be with us and serve all through a committed and brotherly love.
We could create beings that would do our beck and call but they would not be what we desire because they would not have reached the goal through your own free will. Such companionship can only be obtained by taking a journey along the path of your own choosing. On this journey, you will always be in our presence or have the evidence of our existence. However, you have to choose your way based on faith, not by sight. We will now embark on that journey.
Are we committed?
We are committed.
Let it happen.
(Before I continue, remember to check me up in the Bible)
God made His creation knowing the end from the beginning as far as I know. His plan is to have man made in His image with His freewill. Man can choose good or evil. God made man as a "whole". All mankind is linked. Because Adam fell, we (his descendants) now have been affected with a nature of sin being his children. But we still have a conscious and are responsible for our OWN actions.
God will judge us by our own actions. God set out to save us and give mankind a second chance by dying and paying the punishment for stuffing up His world. Our evils and our pains He laid on His back. So that mankind can choose to be good once again and live in the presence of a good God. Though God foreknew some people would choose to go and rebel against His will, He still did not cause them to. He occasioned them to or allowed them to.
If God did not allow this, then love/loyalty/freewill/faithfulness in regard to man would be a myth. How can you have love/loyalty/faithfulness without the opportunity to be hateful/disloyal/unfaithful?
God knows who loves Him by who follows His commands and seeks His presence. God is goodness in Himself, He is not like us. Yes, I take this by faith...that God is good and that He will be faithful. Whether God chooses not to sin and therefore cannot sin (being omnipotent) or whether He by nature cannot sin I do not know. All I know and accept by faith is that God is good as portrayed in His Word.
Faith is evidence of things unseen. I see evidence of God's goodness and therefore believe it and continue to believe it in the future. The next glass of water I drink I have evidence that it is drinkable by the track record of knowing it is drinkable. Yet I drink with faith. (Understand my principle)
We all have faith. Atheists, theists....the difference is, some faiths have better evidence for it than others.
I obviously think Christianity is the best answer to life and I am not ashamed of it.
What do you base the goodness of God off of?
ReplyDeleteIf whatever God does is good, then what would you consider evil?
Is there freewill in Heaven?
I used this example once before and the person couldn't understand it. Suppose you and your fiance had everything perfect, everything. You also knew that if you ever made a coconut cream pie for your fiance that it would ruin everything and destroy your perfection. Do you make the coconut cream pie?
ultimately God is to be blamed because He caused creation to happen which would result in people going to hell
ReplyDeleteBased on your theology yes. In real life, there is no God or gods. Evil and good are products of the actions of man. People are neither good or evil, but are capable of both good and evil actions. This sounds very black and white but most things are grey. Life is so complex and wonderful, it is hard to say what your actions will do in the long run. I try to live by the Golden rule, it is one of the few things found in almost every culture.
We are not ignorant fools...we just dis-agree with what you are saying.
ReplyDeleteNo, you are ignorant fools, if you deny the clear-cut deductively sound logic from which my conclusion is drawn. Saying you disagree is like saying you disagree that combining yellow and blue paints will result in green paint. Seriously -- disagree all you want, but you still haven't even tried to show how god escapes his responsibility in all this.
Though God foreknew some people would choose to go and rebel against His will, He still did not cause them to.
If god didn't want a populated hell (of eternal torment), he shouldn't have created. Period. No one would have gone to hell if god hadn't created. Period. By creating with the knowledge that a populated hell would result, god chose for there to be a populated hell (of eternal torment). Period.
It is neither my own fault, nor the fault of any other non-god being, that there is a hell -- We didn't make the place. Your god chose to create in such a way that a populated hell (of eternal torment) would result, so by direct extension he chose to have a populated hell (of eternal torment). Period.
Every time I've outlined this to you or your comrades, you've come up with virtually identical asinine statements voicing the fact that you "disagree," but not once have any of you actually detailed a fault in the logic, or a problem with the premises.
I have thus far been kind in blaming cognitive dissonance, but my patience is failing -- you are idiots if you continue to insist that god did not choose to have a populated hell (of eternal torment), without at least disputing a premise or two.
--
Stan
D.B.
ReplyDeleteLet me see: According to you the sinful nature is due to God making Adam to his image. Meaning that God itself would have a sinful nature if it could disobey some order given by a being above it?
By giving us a sinful nature for faults not of our own, God would have decided a populated Hell. Unless being made to God's image meant we have no option but to inherit a sinful nature to our offspring since that is what God would be bound to do if it disobeyed some higher power (Which would mean God is not perfect).
Seems like you think the only way to have free-will is to be bound to a sinful nature (which by definition robes from such free-will). How could we be responsible of our own sins if we have the sinful nature in the first place?
Hum, I do not see any way around. God, if it existed, would have to have decided a populated Hell. We could have actual free-will if instead of a sinful nature we had a neutral one. Then we could decide if we want to be with such God or not all by ourselves, rather than be tempted again and again through our lives by things this God would have created too.
Again, unless there is no such thing as omni-anything, and there were a God, but it were capable of creation within very narrow limits ...
G.E.
Hey guys,
ReplyDeleteI only have limited time at the moment. I'll take each person at a time.
Dan
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHello Beams,
ReplyDeleteWhat do you base the goodness of God off of?
The Bible and what human kind in general knows as right and wrong, we all have conscience. The Bible shows God's character and faithfulness to different people throughout it. Just as from your track record I know you are an atheist and assume you will answer me as one.
If whatever God does is good, then what would you consider evil?
Whatever God says as evil. He is the Maker I am the creature. As I said before, we all have a conscience also which God has place in us.
Is there freewill in Heaven?
I don't know what heaven will be like in that respect. All I know is people will be going there with a free choice to go there.
I used this example once before and the person couldn't understand it. Suppose you and your fiance had everything perfect, everything. You also knew that if you ever made a coconut cream pie for your fiance that it would ruin everything and destroy your perfection. Do you make the coconut cream pie?
Relationships are not to be had with coconut cream pies. People are not coconut cream pies. How can it be loyal? God and man is a relationship, not a God and his hammer + nails.
In real life, there is no God or gods.
That is an absolute statement. Are you sure there is no God?
Evil and good are products of the actions of man. People are neither good or evil, but are capable of both good and evil actions.
Contradictory. How can people be neither bad nor good and yet are capable of both good and bad? If there is no centre of the dart board (the bulls eye) then how can you tell how far you are from the centre?
This sounds very black and white but most things are grey. Life is so complex and wonderful, it is hard to say what your actions will do in the long run. I try to live by the Golden rule, it is one of the few things found in almost every culture.
Is there a reason for you to act by the golden rule? Is it "good"?...
cheers,
Dan
Stan,
ReplyDeleteWell, you will have to continue to call me and the God of the Bible an idiot.
It is neither my own fault, nor the fault of any other non-god being, that there is a hell -- We didn't make the place. Your god chose to create in such a way that a populated hell (of eternal torment) would result, so by direct extension he chose to have a populated hell (of eternal torment). Period.
So it is not the fault of a murderer that there are prisons?
Ah, so it is the police's fault for anticipating that there would be murderers?
Dan
G.E.
ReplyDeleteWe could have actual free-will if instead of a sinful nature we had a neutral one.
Adam and Eve were neutral as far as I know. I don't understand the entire sinful nature thing. We are responsible for our own actions, the Bible makes that clear.
By giving us a sinful nature for faults not of our own, God would have decided a populated Hell.
God did not give us a sinful nature but man as a whole as decide upon one, if that makes sense.
God has not decided on a populated hell since He has sent Jesus Christ to redeem mankind. This is God's answer to our crimes and to the fine we owe to the God's law.
Dan
The Bible and what human kind in general knows as right and wrong, we all have conscience. The Bible shows God's character and faithfulness to different people throughout it.
ReplyDeleteSo, God answers to some other source of right and wrong/good and evil. There is something outside of God where morals come from, otherwise whatever God does is good.
Whatever God says as evil. He is the Maker I am the creature. As I said before, we all have a conscience also which God has place in us.
Now you are saying that God says what is good and evil. In this case, if God said sacrificing your firstborn was good, then it would be good. If God says ripping pregnant women open by their bellies and dashing children against rocks is right, then it is right. If God commands you to commit genocide then it would evil not too.
I don't know what heaven will be like in that respect. All I know is people will be going there with a free choice to go there.
Do you believe it will be possible to sin in Heaven?
Relationships are not to be had with coconut cream pies. People are not coconut cream pies. How can it be loyal? God and man is a relationship, not a God and his hammer + nails.
You completely missed the point also. This is not a difficult analogy. I never said that you had a relationship with a coconut cream pie, please reread. I was talking about you and your fiance.
That is an absolute statement. Are you sure there is no God?
You are right that is an absolute statement and I am not absolutely sure. I am absolutely sure that no religion is right about God except maybe deists. That is the only possible type of god or gods.
Contradictory. How can people be neither bad nor good and yet are capable of both good and bad? If there is no centre of the dart board (the bulls eye) then how can you tell how far you are from the centre?
People are inherently neither good nor evil, there is nothing in them that makes them this way. Yet because they are able to reason and understand how their actions effect others, then can perform actions that could be considered good and evil. You would not consider a bear that kills a human out of hunger or self defense good or evil, because it can't reason. Yet if a human does the same you will look at the circumstances and determine if their actions were necessary and thus right or wrong/good or evil.
"Is there a reason for you to act by the golden rule? Is it "good"?"
To lessen the suffering of my fellow man is good. This is not given by God this is the natural progression of a social animal. We survive by working together. If we can't trust one another then we can't survive. Thus a sense of teamwork and trust or altruism is selected for in nature among social animals.
Do piranhas have sense of morals placed on their conscious? Do other apes and monkeys have have God's morals placed on their hearts?
So it is not the fault of a murderer that there are prisons?
ReplyDeleteAh, so it is the police's fault for anticipating that there would be murderers?
Jesus Tap-dancing Christ.
If you're going to waste my time completely, and refuse to even try to answer how god escapes responsibility in this matter, then let me know.
So it is not the fault of a murderer that there are prisons?
Get a clue, buddy, and answer the question, rather than continuing to address the straw-man which has repeatedly been exposed and explained to your apparently feeble mind.
Once more, with feeling:
If god created with the knowledge that a populated hell (of eternal torment) would result, and yet had the ability to avoid this result through not-creating or creating in some other fashion, then the fact of a populated hell (of eternal torment) was necessarily chosen directly.
Address this, or admit defeat. Saying you "disagree" is like Custer disagreeing that Sitting Bull's forces and tactics were superior. It's retarded. Saying you disagree, and showing why, with direct argument, is better, but you haven't yet done that. Saying, 'that doesn't describe the god of the bible,' is just as retarded, unless, again, you actually engage the argument. The bare assertions you've thus far made (that you disagree, or that my argument does not fit your view of the biblical god) are retarded.
So far as I know, you agree with the [condensed] premises:
1. That god prefers that none suffer hell
2. That god had knowledge that his creation would result in a populated hell (of eternal torment)
3. That god had the power to avoid this result through not-creating, or creating in some other fashion (e.g. removing "free will")
4. That god chose to create anyway, in such a way that a populated hell (of eternal torment) resulted
Unless you disagree with one or more of these premises then the conclusion, that this god is contradictory, is inescapable -- if god didn't want a populated hell, he should've avoided creating in such a way that one resulted. At the very least, he should have created in such a way that the majority of his creations would escape that fate -- yet even that seems far from true, as a conservative estimate puts roughly 90% of humanity in hell right now.
So address the premises or the logic, or give up.
--
Stan
I am absolutely sure that no religion is right about God except maybe deists.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this in principle, Beams, though I'd have to add that trickster gods may also exist. Hail Eris.
--
Stan
Good point, Stan. A trickster God is also possible. Praise be to Loki.
ReplyDelete:)
A couple of things, Dan,
ReplyDelete"God did not give us a sinful nature but man as a whole as decide upon one, if that makes sense.
God has not decided on a populated hell since He has sent Jesus Christ to redeem mankind. This is God's answer to our crimes and to the fine we owe to the God's law".
Saying 'man as a whole' when you really mean 'Eve and then Adam' is a but disingenuous, don't you think? Everyone that has been born since them has been born with a sinful nature (due to a curse that God put upon mankind - He could have put a different curse on us, couldn't He?) and nobody but them (A&E) got a choice in the matter.
If everyone got to choose whether or not to eat some forbidden fruit (as an 18th year rite of passage, say), then I'd agree that we're stuck with our choice, but that's not the way it's set up.
What you're suggesting (unless I'm reading you wrong) is that a child born with birth defects because its mother drank during the pregnancy chose to be that way.
Saying that God doesn't want a populated Hell because He sent Jesus is a bit like saying that I don't want my great grandfather to go to prison (where he's already been for 90 years) so I've sent the bail money to get him out. Actually, for some people a closer analogy would be to say that the guy already died in jail 50 years ago, so the bail money is way late!
Not only that, but he didn't know he was in jail the whole time.
And he never committed a crime (he just lusted after a cute girl one time).
etc...
Beams,
ReplyDelete"So, God answers to some other source of right and wrong/good and evil. There is something outside of God where morals come from, otherwise whatever God does is good."
Not necessarily, God gave man morals...that is what I meant, but sin twists them.
"Now you are saying that God says what is good and evil. In this case, if God said sacrificing your firstborn was good, then it would be good"
The fact is, God does not sacrifice the first born. All sin and pain and evil in our world is because of us. Sin entering a perfect world.
"Do you believe it will be possible to sin in Heaven?"
I think I already answered that. I don't know what heaven will be like. It will be a good place though and Christ would have finished His work in us.
"You completely missed the point also. This is not a difficult analogy. I never said that you had a relationship with a coconut cream pie, please reread. I was talking about you and your fiance."
Yiou are saying that God made pies bad in a perfect situation so he made it imperfect. No, God made people in a perfect situation, the cream pie walked on a wrong path. The baker did not make it wrong.
I'll make a new post soon on morality and we will talk about it then.
cheers,
Dan
Stan,
ReplyDelete"yet even that seems far from true, as a conservative estimate puts roughly 90% of humanity in hell right now."
Who are you or I to say who will go to hell? God will decide that. He is the judge.
"No, you are ignorant fools, if you deny the clear-cut deductively sound logic from which my conclusion is drawn. "
Have you ever seen the movie "i Robot"?
Statements like these remind me of the world robot computer repeatedly saying "my logic is undeniable, can you not see my logic?".
Do you know what the robot's logic was? It wanted to protect human beings so much from "sinning" that it kept all of humanity in chains and took their freewill.
A little robot who understood relationship replied to it..."yes I see your logic, but it is too heartless".
GOD WANTS PEOPLE TO CHOOSE THERE OWN WAY. PEOPLE CHOOSE THEIR OWN WAY. GOD WANTS RELATIONSHIPS NOT CREAMED PIES.
I can't put it any more simpler then that. Take it or leave it.
Dan
hey EPM,
ReplyDelete"What you're suggesting (unless I'm reading you wrong) is that a child born with birth defects because its mother drank during the pregnancy chose to be that way."
I am saying that because of sin a child is born with birth defects. It was not the child's fault. But it affects us. Sin in a universal sense affects all mankind which was brought in by A&E. But there is an enormous element of personal choice still in our life for our own actions for which we will be judged. Jesus died for mankind to redeem them because we as a group fell from His presence. But only the few who choose to be reformed and recycled will ever be good again.
Luke 18:
17 "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."
18 ¶ Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
20 "You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’"
21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth."
22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Although, according to this verse this man apparently had everything soughted. There was one thing God had pointed out in his life where he failed by choice. Maybe he was sinless except for this one point? I don't know? This would imply that we are all like Adam and Eve starting guiltless. JUST A THOUGHT, I don't know. Or maybe He was good and sinless, but the fact that he is PART of the human race he was born in sin and is part of a universal responsibility of mankind. But yet still responsible for his own sins. God will judge us by our own deeds...this is what I know.
I have chosen to sin in the past, I have done wrong because I chose. But I want to turn my life around and become like Him and be good like Him...through Him.
Jesus threw in there "follow Me", that is what we must do to get out of this universal mess...follow Him. Romans tells us all men have sinned.
Think, wouldn't it be awesome with a world of no murderers, no adulterers, people that are content.We can all have it! Follow Jesus! Be one of the few who choose to get right with God.
Dan
Who are you or I to say who will go to hell? God will decide that. He is the judge.
ReplyDeleteWhat?! Are you daft, or do you just pretend to be on your blog?
I'm not saying who goes to hell, I'm just making a conservative estimate that 90% of humanity -- of all humanity, to date -- will find itself in hell, if the only way to avoid that fate is to "get saved," and acknowledge that Christ died for our sins. I'd say it's a reasonable estimate, and it fits with the whole "broad is the path to destruction..." schtick. Even the bible says that most will enjoy an eternity of torment in hell, and yet here you are asking retarded questions?
Grow up, kid.
Have you ever seen the movie "i Robot"?
Do you know what that movie had in common with the book by Isaac Asimov? The title. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Do you know what the robot's logic was? It wanted to protect human beings so much from "sinning" that it kept all of humanity in chains and took their freewill.
...but the robot in question did not create humanity, nor the world. If the sentiment behind the "sin" prevention was real, and the robot in question had the opportunity to create humanity and the world, with perfect foreknowledge that this undesired "sin" would result, what do you think it would have done?
(Psst. It probably wouldn't have made any of it.)
A little robot who understood relationship replied to it..."yes I see your logic, but it is too heartless".
What's more heartless? Creating with full knowledge that the vast majority of your creation will find its way to hell for eternity, or not creating at all?
Which one? Huh? Which one is more heartless?
GOD WANTS PEOPLE TO CHOOSE THERE OWN WAY. PEOPLE CHOOSE THEIR OWN WAY. GOD WANTS RELATIONSHIPS NOT CREAMED PIES.
The god you describe wants a populated hell (of eternal torment) -- if he didn't, he wouldn't have created at all. The god you describe is heartless.
Seriously. I'm glad you finally admit that the logic is sound -- that's a solid step in the right direction, and it's far closer to engaging my argument than anything you've yet said to it -- but it's not logic leading to a decision, as in your example, but logic stemming from a decision.
Are you that blind?
Did god know that creation would result in a populated hell (of eternal torment)?
Your answer: Yes.
Did god have the power to create in a manner such that such a hell would be avoided, including the power to not create at all?
Your answer: Yes.
Did your god choose to create anyway?
Your answer: Yes.
Did your god necessarily choose to create such that the vast majority of his creation would end up in a hell of eternal torment?
Your answer: ...
More heartless? You were saying?
--
Stan
Stan,
ReplyDelete"Did god have the power to create in a manner such that such a hell would be avoided, including the power to not create at all?"
Answer: Yes
Did he create in a manner such that such a hell would be avoided?
Answer: No
The question you should be asking is:
Did he create in a manner such that such a hell COULD be avoided?.
Answer: Yes
You and I and all humanity from the beginning of time have/had a choice.
Why is it that everyone nowadays try to pawn off the responsibility of their decisions on someone else? In this case, G-d.
ND
Did he create in a manner such that such a hell COULD be avoided?.
ReplyDelete...with the full knowledge that few would manage to avoid it?
Your answer: Yes.
Why is it that everyone nowadays try to pawn off the responsibility of their decisions on someone else?
Why is it that you seek to avoid leveling responsibility where it belongs? Why do you consistently misrepresent my position to make it appear that I absolve humanity of its responsibility?
Stop being dishonest, and answer the questions. Can I go to hell if I do not exist? Does god prefer people to end up in hell?
I am not making any claim regarding my own personal responsibility, nor that of any other human, but of god's responsibility, through his willful decision to create in such a way that there would be a populated hell of eternal torment, despite the fact that you would say he does not wish for hell to exist, much less be populated.
If he really didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't, and neither would any who might go there.
Answer to the logic based on the premises that you accept, or STFU.
--
Stan
Stan,
ReplyDelete"Why is it that you seek to avoid leveling responsibility where it belongs?"
I'm not. You are trying to blame G-d for our short fallings.
"Why do you consistently misrepresent my position to make it appear that I absolve humanity of its responsibility?"
Because you are. Don't you read what you write? You continually blame G-d for the prison sentence because he built the prison. You're shirking our responsibility for our actions. G-d alone is righteous. There is no blame that can be attributed to a righteous and holy G-d. He is the standard.
The world was made perfect.
Humanity was made perfect.
G-d gave us free will to follow him or disobey.
G-d wants free willed people to choose righeousness.
We chose and continue disobedience.
The penalty for disobedience is death.
G-d makes the rules. No matter how you try to define him by human terms, he is still righteous and holy.
ND
Stan the half truth teller,
ReplyDeletesaid:
I'm not saying who goes to hell, I'm just making a conservative estimate that 90% of humanity -- of all humanity, to date -- will find itself in hell, if the only way to avoid that fate is to "get saved," and acknowledge that Christ died for our sins. I'd say it's a reasonable estimate, and it fits with the whole "broad is the path to destruction..." schtick.
I can say what will send someone to hell but ultimately God knows every one of our hearts. I cannot see the heart.
Seriously. I'm glad you finally admit that the logic is sound
I never did.
Stop being dishonest, and answer the questions. Can I go to hell if I do not exist? Does god prefer people to end up in hell?
1.NO you cannot go to hell if you do not exist.
2.God would prefer to have people end up in hell than to have rebellion and sin unpunished for eternity, and allow all of humanity to live in an eternal hell-like earth...caused by our sin.
God sent us a way out of this hellish mess of ours. Through His Son.
ND,
ReplyDeleteG-d alone is righteous. There is no blame that can be attributed to a righteous and holy G-d. He is the standard.
The world was made perfect.
Humanity was made perfect.
G-d gave us free will to follow him or disobey.
G-d wants free willed people to choose righeousness.
We chose and continue disobedience.
The penalty for disobedience is death.
G-d makes the rules. No matter how you try to define him by human terms, he is still righteous and holy.
Preach it brother!
We are the creatures, He is the creator.
Romans 9:20,
"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?""
Dan
The fact is, God does not sacrifice the first born. All sin and pain and evil in our world is because of us. Sin entering a perfect world.
ReplyDeleteWell actually, he did. What do you think Jesus' death was. He also commanded his followers to do it.
Exodus 13:1-2 - "And YHWH spoke to Moses, saying, "Consecrate every firstborn for me. The first birth of every womb of the children of Israel, of a human and of an animal: it is mine."
Later he gives them a loophole in case they don't really want to sacrifice their first born if it is a son.
Exodus 13:12-13 - "that you will pass every first birth of a womb to YHWH; and every first birth, offspring of an animal, that you will have - the males - is YHWH's. And you shall redeem every first brith of an ass with a lamb, and if you will not redeem, then you shall break its neck. And you shall redeem every human firstborn among your sons."
In Leviticus 27:26-29, YHWH changes his mind on allowing redemption: "Except: a firstling of the animals - which as a firstling is committed to YHWH - no man shall consecrate it. Whether an ox or sheep, it is YHWH's. And if it is of the impure animals, then he [the priests] shall redeem it at your appraisal, and he shall add to it a fifth of it. And if it will not be redeemed then it shall be sold at your appraisal.
Except: any devoted thing that a man will devote to YHWH from anything he has - from human or animal or from a field of his possession - shall not be sold and shall not be redeemed. Any devoted thing: it is holy of holies to YHWH. Anyone who will be devoted from humans shall not be redeemed. He shall be put to death."
The Lord goes on to admit that this commandment was evil in Ezekiel 20:25-26 - "Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live. I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might know that I am YHWH."
I think I already answered that. I don't know what heaven will be like. It will be a good place though and Christ would have finished His work in us.
I know you are not really answering this but if you have freewill in Heaven and there is no sin, why couldn't the Earth be made like that in the first place?
Yiou are saying that God made pies bad in a perfect situation so he made it imperfect. No, God made people in a perfect situation, the cream pie walked on a wrong path. The baker did not make it wrong.
ReplyDeleteNo, no, no, no. You are trying to read too much into this. I am not saying the cream pie is right or wrong, I am saying if you make the cream pie it will bring a rift between you and your fiance, so do you make the cream pie?
Hey ya Beams,
ReplyDeleteNo, no, no, no. You are trying to read too much into this. I am not saying the cream pie is right or wrong, I am saying if you make the cream pie it will bring a rift between you and your fiance, so do you make the cream pie?
Oh ok, so the cream pie is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Exodus 13:1-2 - "And YHWH spoke to Moses, saying, "Consecrate every firstborn for me. The first birth of every womb of the children of Israel, of a human and of an animal: it is mine."
Later he gives them a loophole in case they don't really want to sacrifice their first born if it is a son.
No, read it more carefully, it is not in case they don't want to.
Exodus 13:12-13 - "that you will pass every first birth of a womb to YHWH; and every first birth, offspring of an animal, that you will have - the males - is YHWH's. And you shall redeem every first brith of an ass with a lamb, and if you will not redeem, then you shall break its neck. And you shall redeem every human firstborn among your sons."
I'll carry on the verses you gave:
14 "So it shall be, when your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is this?’ that you shall say to him, ‘By strength of hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
15 ‘And it came to pass, when Pharaoh was stubborn about letting us go, that the LORD killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of beast. Therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all males that open the womb, but all the firstborn of my sons I redeem.’
God only set apart the males because of the remembrance of God's deliverance from Egypt. Read what it says at the end of v 13 And you shall redeem every human firstborn among your sons."
God does not sacrifice any for Himself and says that every human firstborn shall be redeemed. He only brings punishment and judgment on evil doers (Egypt's first born).
28 ‘Nevertheless no devoted offering that a man may devote to the LORD of all that he has, both man and beast, or the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed; every devoted offering is most holy to the LORD.
29 ‘No person under the ban, who may become doomed to destruction among men, shall be redeemed, but shall surely be put to death.
Very interesting verses. However we know that God refuses human sacrifices - Exodus 24:20, 13:13, Numbers 18:15.
So, what could these verses be referring to?
the Hebrew word "cherem" could refer to those doomed for death - 1 Kings 20:42, 1 Samuel 15:21.
So could these verses refer to people like the ones just listed? and not first born animal sacrifices?.....
29 ‘No person under the ban, who may become doomed to destruction among men, shall be redeemed, but shall surely be put to death.
God wants clean sacrifices, not dirty people. Although you are right in the fact that God does demand human sacrifice for our sins. That is why He sent Jesus Christ to save dirty mankind. God sacrificed his own Son once and for all!
Ezekiel 20:25-26 - "Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live. I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might know that I am YHWH."
I see this verse as God placing them under the statutes of the nations He scattered them into (v23) because they were evil and did not walk in His ways.
I'll give the old king James. It says in verse 25 "should not live" rather than "could not live". So God caused them to go into nations that practiced human sacrifice.
cheers,
Dan
Beams,
ReplyDelete"I know you are not really answering this but if you have freewill in Heaven and there is no sin, why couldn't the Earth be made like that in the first place?"
God want people who choose Him. If earth was made like heaven then no person would have chosen to be on earth.
We choose to go to heaven with our Maker.
Dan
God want people who choose Him. If earth was made like heaven then no person would have chosen to be on earth.
ReplyDeleteWe choose to go to heaven with our Maker.
So in Heaven we would just be worshiping automatons with no freewill. If we can't not choose him then there is no freewill. So for 80 years God wants you to choose, then for unlimited time you have no choice? So God wants us to choose whether to be worshiping automatons or tortured.
If there is freewill, then not wanting to worship God is an option. You know what I can't force everyone in the world to like me (not even close), and I am okay with that. So there would be no sin, everything would be perfect and there is still choice to worship. Again I ask why couldn't be this way from the start?
Oh ok, so the cream pie is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?,
Okay, now you understand. Why create something you know will destroy your perfection? What good does that do? If you don't create it everything remains perfect forever and no one goes to hell.
God only set apart the males because of the remembrance of God's deliverance from Egypt. Read what it says at the end of v 13 And you shall redeem every human firstborn among your sons."
God does not sacrifice any for Himself and says that every human firstborn shall be redeemed. He only brings punishment and judgment on evil doers (Egypt's first born).
God is asking for the death of every first born male, even if he gives a loophole, does that make it right? God is saying you should sacrifice your first born to me, but here is a way you don't have too. The Leviticus verse is further expansion upon this idea.
Very interesting verses. However we know that God refuses human sacrifices - Exodus 24:20, 13:13, Numbers 18:15.
Let's look at those verses:
Well Exodus 24 does not have a verse 20.
Exodus 13:13, I have already quoted above, it is the loophole.
Numbers 18:15 is just a reiteration of the loophole. God is still saying he requires your firstborns blood but here is how to get out of it, by buying God off with five shekels of silver.
So, what could these verses be referring to?
the Hebrew word "cherem" could refer to those doomed for death - 1 Kings 20:42, 1 Samuel 15:21.
So could these verses refer to people like the ones just listed? and not first born animal sacrifices?.....
Then why list it with the talk of sacrifices?
God wants clean sacrifices, not dirty people. Although you are right in the fact that God does demand human sacrifice for our sins. That is why He sent Jesus Christ to save dirty mankind. God sacrificed his own Son once and for all!
So you worship a God that demands human sacrifices. That is my point. Do human sacrifices sound good to you? Also didn't you say, "The fact is, God does not sacrifice the first born." He may not do it himself except in Egypt and with Jesus, but he demands it of his followers which is what I said, "He also commanded his followers to do it." It seems we are in agreement here.
I see this verse as God placing them under the statutes of the nations He scattered them into (v23) because they were evil and did not walk in His ways.
I'll give the old king James. It says in verse 25 "should not live" rather than "could not live". So God caused them to go into nations that practiced human sacrifice.
Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could/should not live.
If God is the giver of morality, then how could people know that the statutes that he "gave them" were not good? If God tells you to do something it would be, by the definition of what God says is good, good. Here God is saying he gave them statutes that were evil or not good. Again, how would they know that without some outside reference other than God, which is implied in this verse, "in order that I might horrify them, so that they might know that I am YHWH."
Word verification: wooload as in a load of woo. :P
God is still saying he requires your firstborns blood but here is how to get out of it, by buying God off with five shekels of silver.
ReplyDeleteToo add to this, what happens if the person doesn't have 5 shekels of silver?
Beams,
ReplyDeleteSo in Heaven we would just be worshiping automatons with no freewill. If we can't not choose him then there is no freewill. So for 80 years God wants you to choose, then for unlimited time you have no choice? So God wants us to choose whether to be worshiping automatons or tortured.
If there is freewill, then not wanting to worship God is an option. You know what I can't force everyone in the world to like me (not even close), and I am okay with that. So there would be no sin, everything would be perfect and there is still choice to worship. Again I ask why couldn't be this way from the start?
I don't know what heaven will be like, I have never been there. All I know is we have freewill to get there.
Okay, now you understand. Why create something you know will destroy your perfection? What good does that do? If you don't create it everything remains perfect forever and no one goes to hell.
God made an opportunity to be disloyal. Mankind took that opportunity and blew it, we chose life without God. Now you get into Stan's "problem". Read through all the other posts to see answers from ND, HB, and myself. God is not after robots but people with a will, with a heart.
Well Exodus 24 does not have a verse 20.
Exodus 34, sorry.
Then why list it with the talk of sacrifices?
I suppose you mean these verses...
"28 ‘Nevertheless no devoted offering that a man may devote to the LORD of all that he has, both man and beast, or the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed; every devoted offering is most holy to the LORD.
29 ‘No person under the ban, who may become doomed to destruction among men, shall be redeemed, but shall surely be put to death."
The word cherem (devoted), refers to destruction of people obviously (end of vs 29). So who are these people? I think they are people who already have the death sentence or God has already appointed to die for some reason or another.
The word cherem is used in v21, it is the only other use of the word in the chapter. (cherem can also mean dedicated)
Earlier context does not necessarily refer to sacrifices. vs 21 refers to fields. Fields were not a sacrifice by fire from my understanding but rather a dedication to God...which in turn was to the Levites. The word to describe many of the objects is the word kaw-dash’ which means to "set apart". Not necessarily a burnt sacrifice.
So, we have offerings, then dedications (fields etc), then things determined for death (punishment), then tithes....
Continued...
So you worship a God that demands human sacrifices. That is my point. Do human sacrifices sound good to you? Also didn't you say, "The fact is, God does not sacrifice the first born." He may not do it himself except in Egypt and with Jesus, but he demands it of his followers which is what I said, "He also commanded his followers to do it." It seems we are in agreement here.
ReplyDeleteGod does want human sacrifices. Have you ever wondered why people die? it is because it is the punishment or the payment for our sins, for stuffing up our world.
Ultimately God DOES NOT WANT HUMAN SACRIFICES. It is our mishaps that have caused this situation.
Psalm 51:
"16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart—These, O God, You will not despise."
Thank God that He sent His perfect Son to pay for all our sins!
Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could/should not live.
I have said before that this refers I believe to the laws they were placed under in exile.
If God is the giver of morality, then how could people know that the statutes that he "gave them" were not good? If God tells you to do something it would be, by the definition of what God says is good, good
God is the giver of morality. I don't have a problem with that. He is boss and I am not. It turns out that God's rules are good.
Too add to this, what happens if the person doesn't have 5 shekels of silver?
I don't know. There is no record (that I know of) of child sacrifice happening so I guess it never happened.
Also in Leviticus 27:8, someone who takes vow can redeem it for a certain price but if they are poor the priest will evaluate them and adjust payment.
Could this be the same for child redemption?
cheers,
Dan
There is no record (that I know of) of child sacrifice happening so I guess it never happened.
ReplyDeleteI see. So I must ask, then, did Moses ever urinate? Did Noah ever get sea-sick? Did King David ever catch a cold? Did Joshua ever have a "nocturnal emission"? Did Eve ever menstruate? Did Jesus ever defecate?
Evidently not, according to your answer above...
Could this be the same for child redemption?
Let me demonstrate your thought process here, of which you may be quite unaware. When you ask the question above, you are thinking the following:
-- The bible appears to require child sacrifice.
-- That's atrocious.
-- I like the bible.
-- I don't like child sacrifice.
-- Maybe there is something that commutes the requirement for child sacrifice.
-- Oh! This chronologically later verse is ambiguous, but describes a possible loophole for child sacrifice!
Could this be the same for child redemption?
Your question belies your trust in the bible.
As to the problem I've proposed, which you recognize yet refuse to engage, I ask again -- if you deny the logic behind my position, expose it. If you refuse to expose a flaw in the logic, you accept it by default.
To sum up the problem in a single sentence (which I believe I've already done a few times, but this version is from a visitor to my pathetic blog), consider the following:
If you can foresee an indirect outcome of your actions and then take those actions, you are responsible for the foreseen outcome.
--
Stan
It's getting to be a long thread so I am admitting I have skipped half of it. So it what I say has already been spoken, my apologies. And I am not saying this to debate, for I feel the issue is a closed deal. This is just how I see it.
ReplyDeleteDB,
I think you have heard people correctly. And quite frankly, even though I have been a Christian for a long time now, have struggled with this same question. Is God to blame for what I have done?
To all others,
My answer is no. (big shock huh?) But here is why:
I see it as God giving the gift of life. Now gifts first of all can be accepted, rejected, or even forgotten about (ultimately rejected). If I give a gift to the one I love (and no offense Beamstalk but I will be using your concept, I hope that is okay), I am hoping she loves my gift. She has the choice of liking what she sees, hating it, or not caring. True love wants her to want it as well. Free will is actually a gift. We have all accepted it. But many chose not to take the gift of love. I love my wife. I don't want her to be forced to love me back. If I have to do so, then love means nothing.
Now, does free will and the knowledge of God make Him evil since He knows what I will do? Well, I think it as God knows the future, but the future is not etched in stone. I have a friend who I saw destroying his life. I knew exactly what was going to happen. I warned him about it and he refused to listen and I told him I wasn't going to help him. I was angry but knew he had to make his own decision. But when it came time and the event that I knew was going to happen was happening, my heart broke and I ended up helping him anyway.
I see God in this way a little. He knows the future but sometimes when the event actually takes place, His heart is moved. He intervenes and gives us another choice. Again out of love He wants us to make the right choice and he will always give us a way out of stuff.
Now it's at this time that someone says "But God never changes". But that is a distortion of scripture. He being holy, He being loving, instructive and all the like is unchangeable. But his heart perhaps does.
I hope this helps some to understand. Again, not to debate. I probably won't even respond, so if someone wants to rip this post into two, that is fine.
Take care and see you on another post. :)
Gozreht,
ReplyDeleteSo true, I agree with you!
Although I don't believe in universalism. I am sure you probably weren't meaning that but I just want to balance it out.
Yes, God is merciful and long suffering, but evil must be punished should it choose to continue to be evil.
blessings brother,
Dan
Hey again Stan,
ReplyDeleteI see. So I must ask, then, did Moses ever urinate? Did Noah ever get sea-sick? Did King David ever catch a cold? Did Joshua ever have a "nocturnal emission"? Did Eve ever menstruate? Did Jesus ever defecate?
LOL, there is a great difference between child sacrifice and going to the toilet :)
Regarding the Bible, I seek truth. When something says something, I wonder why? and then I look...
If you can foresee an indirect outcome of your actions and then take those actions, you are responsible for the foreseen outcome.
God occasioned/allowed people to go to hell (through foreknowing).
Is this bad?
No,
You think of God as dominoes and God tipped the first one and therefore created all the dominoes and caused them to fall and choose hell.
Analogy...try to see my view.
(Bubble = freewill)
Think of God dwelling in a bubble. He then makes another INDEPENDENT bubble which is where we are. Separate from God. God can step into our bubble and change things (which are miracles). But ultimately God leaves dwellers in the separate bubble to do their own will. He can see the outcome of this bubble's end but the dwellers in the separate bubble have the opportunity to choose loyalty to God or reject Him. (they are in their own bubble).
Foreknowing is not predetermining. Yes God is responsible for people getting sent to hell...just as the police are responsible for sending thieves to prison.
But ultimately the thieves and the people in the separate bubble make their choice whether they will be loyal to God or land's the law.
I don't say the police are bad for sending people to imprisonment, nor do I say God is bad. It is people that are bad.
That is my logic, and it makes sense to me.
cheers,
Dan
Universalism? No. Sorry if it came across that way.
ReplyDeleteForeknowing is not predetermining. Yes God is responsible for people getting sent to hell...just as the police are responsible for sending thieves to prison.
ReplyDeleteNot quite. Ask any police officer if he'd prefer there to be no crime whatsoever, and see what he says. The police officer, you see, didn't make the criminals, with perfect knowledge that they'd commit crimes which he would then try to prevent. Aside from the prospect of losing his job, I can't imagine a single police officer desiring for crime to persist, and certainly no honest police officer would willingly generate crime.
Enough with the analogies, however, I instead want a direct response to my deductively sound argument, the premises of which you have already and explicitly accepted:
P1. The Christian god prefers not a populated hell.
P2. The Christian god knew that creating would result in a populated hell.
P3. The Christian god is the "first cause."
P4. The Christian god had in its power the ability to not-create.
P5. The Christian god chose to create in such a fashion as to ensure a populated hell.
C. The Christian god cannot exist -- P5 contradicts P1, if P1-5 are otherwise accepted.
Rather than saying "I disagree," the onus is on you to explicitly show where and how this argument fails, if indeed you continue to deny it. If you accept these five premises (as you have already done), the conclusion necessarily follows. That's deductive. If you think otherwise, you need to educate yourself as to just what constitutes a deductive argument, and try again.
If you insist that the conclusion does not follow from the premises, or that an explicit contradiction does not occur via P1 v. P5, the onus is again on you to explain why.
To those others observing, friend or foe, I extend as a courtesy this challenge to any of you as well -- if there is any flaw in this argument, please expose it.
--
Stan
Blast from the past but oh well.
ReplyDeleteI heard a preacher ages ago suggest that to "know" in the Bible was to choose to have a relationship with someone. Then it hit me. The word "knew" used in the phrase in Genesis where Adam "knew" Eve is exactly the same Hebrew word as to "know" good and evil.
Genesis 4:1
"Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the LORD.”
Go figure, to "know" doesn't just mean to have knowledge it means to have a relationship with..."