Tuesday, August 11, 2009

Omniscience, Omnipotence

I have been thinking about the problems that people have (including Christians) with getting rid of Greek ideas of thought.

For example. Where in the Bible does it say that God is omnipotent? All powerful to do good and evil.
I know He is most powerful but when thinking about it, there are some things that I can do that God cannot. E.G. I can lie but God cannot...He is good.

Titus 1:
2 "in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,"

Is God all knowing? I seem to remember in Hebrews somewhere it saying that God forgets our sins! LOL...isn't that awesome!

Heb 10:17, Heb 8:12
(Thanks Keith :))

But some questions that I would like to ask is "Does God know the future or does He cause what He plans (prophecy)? Is God outside of time?...that is Greek thought. Or is simply God eternal who was and is and is to come?

Genesis 18:21. Seems to suggest that God came down to check out Sodom and Gomorrah? If I remember correctly... God knows the hairs on our heads which implies He can know everything...but is there some things He will not intrude on (want for a better word)? Though maybe it is just figurative language about God musing over what we as people have done :)

Answers from the Bible is what I would like. It is the Word of God and I believe it! Praise God for revealing Himself to us through His Word! Help us to learn oh God!

Keen to hear your guys thoughts?

Dan

P.S.
Taking what I said here:
"But some questions that I would like to ask is "Does God know the future or does He cause what He plans (prophecy)? Is God outside of time?...that is Greek thought. Or is simply God eternal who was and is and is to come?"

I am NOT saying that God does not know the future. I think He does when I consider prophecies in Daniel etc etc, however I am just wanting to challenge thoughts that we have been brought up in and get back to the Word of God.

35 comments:

  1. Hey Dan,

    "Is God all knowing? I seem to remember in Hebrews somewhere it saying that God forgets our sins! LOL...isn't that awesome! I'll find that verse when I have time...(I'm at work)"

    Here you go. Glad to help. :-)

    "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

    Heb 8:12

    "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

    Heb 10:17

    Shalom,

    Keith

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  2. I have modified the post since the original.

    And thanks Keith! Bless you brother.

    Dan

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  3. Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    The word 'evil' in English here is Ra' in Ancient Hebrew.

    It means bad, evil, worse than, unhappy, wicked (ethically), injury, wrong, misery, distress, adversity, calamity, hurtful in deeds and actions, malignant, etc...

    The words 'the Lord' is of course YHWH.

    Omnipotence:

    Matthew 19:26
    But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

    Job 42:2
    I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

    Jeremiah 32:17,27
    Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
    Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

    Luke 1:37
    For with God nothing shall be impossible.

    Revelation 19:6
    And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

    Omniscience:

    Psalm 147:4,5
    He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

    Acts 15:18
    Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    Isaiah 46:10
    Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

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  4. All powerful means that He is in control. I quoted a small story on another site but it's a long story. I think you hit a point. Too many people think it's about what you said. He can do anything? Then why can't He lie? Omnipotent first of all is a word made up not Biblical. So we attribute the wrong concept to the word.

    All knowing means He knows everything. He knows our motives, our hearts, dreams, desires. Does He know the future? Yes, just as well as the past. But here is where the foreknowledge and predestination argument comes in. Does He create some to perish? I would say of course not. I will not even begin to say I know the answer here. But in my opinion, God knows the future. He will intervene at times. When time comes and He sees it all, maybe His heart feels so much compassion He changes His mind. I knew my friend was moving this last week. I knew what was going to happen, but when the time came, emotions came all over me and cried. If I could have changed the situation I would have. Maybe that is God?

    Is He everywhere? Yes. And this is separate from all-knowing. He presence is everywhere. His availability is everywhere. You don't have to go to a church to confess, or pray. Wherever you go, He is there.

    2 cents...

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  5. Dan,
    Thanks for manning up to those contradictions.
    You have become the best player on "our" team.
    I can use your arguments to point out even more biblical contradictions.

    I'd love to hear how someone like Ray Comfort would resond to your post.

    /D

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  6. Gozreht,

    I agree with you, excellent bro!

    Beams,

    Some wonderful verses you have portrayed. Although I don't think when you put them you had "God is awesome" in your mind :)

    Well, I can answer by saying: "I am sure any person here can quote me out of context should they desire".

    This is what people do with the Bible. They use all these verses to say that God can do everything but then state that God contradicts Himself because He says He cannot lie. Compare scripture and find out what God is telling us. Just as you should compare my posts and sentences to see what I am saying.

    I will use an example of people taking scripture out of context and fitting new meanings:

    Phil 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

    If I took that verse alone, I could say that all people can do what they like all they want as long as it is in Christ. In context of the Word of God this is not true as we all well know.

    The context is about being content in all situations...not about sin...not about making money.

    The verses previous:

    "11 Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content:
    12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need."

    Ah, yes...this verse:

    Isaiah 45:7
    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

    What is the opposite to "peace"? The New King James actually puts it as "calamity" which is probably more accurate to the meaning here.
    The context of the Bible states that God is good and cannot lie, so this verse is not referring to moral evil but rather "war" or "terror" as opposed to peace. God is a God of war against evil people.

    The meanings of peace:

    completeness, soundness, welfare, peace
    1a) completeness (in number)
    1b) safety, soundness (in body)
    1c) welfare, health, prosperity
    1d) peace, quiet, tranquillity, contentment
    1e) peace, friendship
    1e1) of human relationships
    1e2) with God especially in covenant relationship
    1f) peace (from war)
    1g) peace (as adjective)

    Interesting. The first part of this verse gives the clue :"I form the light and create darkness,". God is the God of peace and judgement...war. This verse seems to be giving us opposites (light and dark, peace and calamity)

    The rest of the Bible makes it clear that God is good. Read in context.

    Dale,

    I don't man up to contradictions. I seek what the Bible says about God. The Bible paints a picture.
    If you run with a verse you end up in cults...or maybe even in atheism :)

    I could quote you and make you say what I like but I need to read what you write as a whole and learn about you.

    E.G. You said: "I'd love to hear how someone like Ray Comfort would resond to your post."

    I could say "Dale likes what Ray Comfort has to say about things...Dale must admire him and respect him and like his views."
    (I know this is not the case from my understanding)

    cheers guys,

    Dan

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  7. Dan
    You are the one that pointed out the contradiction and Beamer merely expanded on that.

    "I could say "Dale likes what Ray Comfort has to say about things...Dale must admire him and respect him and like his views."
    (I know this is not the case from my understanding)"

    Sorry lil buddy. That is not a proper example of out of context or a contradiction. That would be a bald faced lie.

    You are decieving yourself and I think that you know it.

    /D

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  8. BeamStalk said...

    Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    The word 'evil' in English here is Ra' in Ancient Hebrew.

    It means bad, evil, worse than, unhappy, wicked (ethically), injury, wrong, misery, distress, adversity, calamity, hurtful in deeds and actions, malignant, etc...

    ReplyDelete
  9. Beam Stalk,

    Excellent homework in your verse research in your first comment. You actually found more than I could remember.

    However, one exception, the word translated as evil is not “ra” but ”choshek” which means darkness. Also, the root meaning is confinement, most likely speaking of hell, or more specifically, hades.

    This is interesting because in Genesis G-d calls forth light out of the ”choshek” darkness. Is this the same darkness? Is G-d calling out light from a place of confinement? It’s the same word.

    Shalom,
    ND

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  10. Froggie/Dale,

    "Sorry lil buddy. That is not a proper example of out of context or a contradiction. That would be a bald faced lie."

    But I am sure you see my point.

    Dan

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  11. Froggie/Dale,

    "You are the one that pointed out the contradiction and Beamer merely expanded on that."

    And I gave an explanation. That in context of the Bible it seems rather to mean more calamity rather than moral wrong.
    Also, I was not pointing out a contradiction, I was wondering what it could mean.

    It is people like atheists who jump to conclusions and claim that they are contradictions.

    cheers,

    Dan

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  12. For your guys further reading I found this.

    http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/create_evil.html

    Enjoy. Seek...don't turn a blind eye.

    Dan

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  13. To Summarise,

    -------------------------------------------------

    BeamStalk brought out some good verses that point to God's knowledge of the future and others. (Though sorry BeamStalk if I had a go at you :) You actually did as I asked. Thankyou!) I am use to hidden agendas to fight against sometimes LOL.

    Here is are different views of omnipotence.

    "1 A deity is able to do anything that is logically possible for it to do[1].
    2 A deity is able to do anything that it chooses to do[2].
    3 A deity is able to do anything that is in accord with its own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of a deity's nature that what it speaks is truth, then it is not able to lie).
    4 Hold that it is part of a deity's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for said deity to go against its own laws unless there was a reason to do so.[3]
    5 A deity is able to do anything that corresponds with its omniscience and therefore with its worldplan
    6 A deity is able to do absolutely anything, even the logically impossible. "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence

    As you can see there are many meanings to ommnipotence.

    The God of the Bible is omnipotent in regard to some of these points. God cannot lie etc. But he is all powerful to do good...even to judge and condemn and even forgive (with lawful payment...Christ)

    Take the Bible as a whole and you will learn about God. Don't take a verse and run with it.

    Thankyou for all your guy's participation thus far.

    cheers,

    Dan

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  14. I am breaking my own code but No Doubt you are an idiot.

    Choshek is used in the first phrase, "I form the light, and create darkness".

    Ra' is used in the second phrase "I make peace, and create evil", which is what I was talking about.

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  15. Goz said:

    [M]aybe [god's] heart feels so much compassion He changes His mind. 

    This is contrary to Christian theology, which dictates that god's character is unchanging. Of course, this theology is likewise contrary to biblical statements, but that doesn't seem to stop anyone from waffling on this issue -- it's just a result of cognitive dissonance.

    If I could have changed the situation I would have. Maybe that is God? 

    Evidently not. Clearly, your god could have changed a number of things throughout history, yet he did not. Or, if you insist that he did significantly contribute to the course of history, you may assert that the possible history he averted may have been worse than what we see, but you must also accept that he specifically chose this history with all its terrible consequences.

    No, your god chose not to change things, despite his clear ability. Rather than waiting a hundred generations for Christ to be born, Cain could have been Jesus. Instead of immediately fixing things, he waited. Instead of ensuring that all systems would receive the patch, he made the patch optional, and even allowed various competitors to develop a similar patch, and even allowed for the development of open-source software.

    Your god is worse than Windows Millennium Edition.

    What Christians argue in these sorts of discussions is a sort of selective omnipotence, and a complete ignorance of omniscience -- the title of this topic notwithstanding. Now, I'm not arguing that god should be able to make a rock he can't lift, or that he should be able to lie, or other poorly constructed absurdities, and I don't seen anyone else making those arguments, either. Instead, the Christians bring these things up in an apparent effort at slipping in a straw man as not only an easy target, but as a diversion away from their selection with respect to omnipotence/omniscience.

    You don't deny that god is capable of refusing to create, or of creating in such a way that no souls need experience evil or eternal torment, and you don't deny that god knew that evil and/or eternal torment would result from creation, yet you ignorantly deny his responsibility for evil and/or eternal torment.

    This selective omnipotence is simple special pleading, and the complete ignorance of his implications of omniscience is pure cognitive dissonance.

    While god cannot create a rock he cannot lift -- because this is absurd -- he clearly could have created a world in which there was neither evil nor eternal torment...

    ...yet he didn't. This is a de facto choice on his part, necessarily. The god you describe wanted evil and eternal torment -- else it does not exist.

    --
    Stan

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  16. Dan,
    You said,
    "Excellent homework [Beamstalk] in your verse research in your first comment. You actually found more than I could remember."

    That is not an overtly accusatory statement, but you make it sound like Beam had to go hunting for a verse to try to make an argument.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. I know Beamer, he is a friend of mine and you will never know as much about the bible as he does.

    He knew exactly what verse he was going to use without having to do any "research."

    If you ever get a chance to meet him in person, do it because you will be very surprised at his scholarly knowledge of scripture.

    Just wanted you to know who you are dealing with here.

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  17. Stan,
    Your last comment was very well thought out and well written. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Da Bomb said "The God of the Bible is omnipotent in regard to some of these points. God cannot lie etc. But he is all powerful to do good...even to judge and condemn and even forgive (with lawful payment...Christ)"

    Then I ask you the Euthyphro Dilemma. Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?

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  19. Stan,

    This is getting ridiculous,

    "While god cannot create a rock he cannot lift -- because this is absurd -- he clearly could have created a world in which there was neither evil nor eternal torment...

    ...yet he didn't. This is a de facto choice on his part, necessarily. The god you describe wanted evil and eternal torment -- else it does not exist."

    God is not the first cause in a line of dominoes. He is the first cause in a line of autonomous people who choose to walk about according to their own will. It is our fault not His.

    Dale,

    You are getting confused with who said what, ND said the following.

    "Excellent homework [Beamstalk] in your verse research in your first comment. You actually found more than I could remember."

    Beams,
    "Then I ask you the Euthyphro Dilemma. Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?"

    I don't know, there could be an element of truth in both. God has a character and acts according to that character.

    Dan

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  20. Beam Stalk,

    "Ra' is used in the second phrase "I make peace, and create evil", which is what I was talking about."

    I stand corrected. I quickly glanced over your comment and assumed you were talking about darkness. My bad.

    "Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    The word 'evil' in English here is Ra' in Ancient Hebrew.

    It means bad, evil, worse than, unhappy, wicked (ethically), injury, wrong, misery, distress, adversity, calamity, hurtful in deeds and actions, malignant, etc..."

    I knew that looked familiar. That's in the same order as the Strong's concordance. Good job at cutting and pasting.

    With that said, Let's look at this from a Jewish perspective, which will show your lack of understanding of our language.


    "I form the light,"

    I have given you illumination, light, understanding, life and the Law.

    "...and create darkness:"

    and established the ramifications for rejecting the light. Hades. A place of confinement. There are two side to Hades:

    The Righteous Side of Sheol or Hades:
    1. Abraham's Bosom

    The Unrighteous Side of Sheol or Hades:
    1. Hell
    2. The Abyss
    3. Tartarus

    As I refered to in my last comment, I find this interesting because it's possibly referred to in B'reshit, Genesis, during the creatin account.

    "I make peace"

    (Refering back to the light) I will give you Noach, rest.

    "and create evil"

    (Refering back to the darkness) I will give you Ra, Woe, calamity.

    "I the LORD do all these things."

    Even though you have an inept understanding of G-ds language, you could have read it in context. The first eight verses would have enlightened you as to its meaning.

    Please notice I did not call you an idiot or an ignoramus because of your continued and blatant display of your total lack of understanding of our language.

    ND

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  21. Froggie,

    "That is not an overtly accusatory statement, but you make it sound like Beam had to go hunting for a verse to try to make an argument."

    I truly meant that as a complimet. Why do you take it as an insult. Maybe, deep down inside, you doubt his knowledge.

    "Nothing could be further from the truth. I know Beamer, he is a friend of mine and you will never know as much about the bible as he does.He knew exactly what verse he was going to use without having to do any "research.""

    Shows how naive you are concerning the scriptures and our language. There's a major difference between knowing the language and understanding the language. As I show in my last comment, Beam Stalk lacks both. He's just a cut and paste man. I wonder if you would still put him up on that pedestal of yours if he didn't have the internet to rely on.

    "If you ever get a chance to meet him in person, do it because you will be very surprised at his scholarly knowledge of scripture."

    Oh...we will. At the throne of G-d. I'll be there knealing with the rest of you.

    "Just wanted you to know who you are dealing with here."

    I am forbidden to make judgement on your salvation. However, I get a pretty good idea based on his fruits or lack thereof.


    Shalom Aleichem

    B'ruch attah Y'shua b'shem Adonai

    No Doubt

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  22. Hey Stan,

    "This is contrary to Christian theology, which dictates that god's character is unchanging. "

    This is why I asked you over at my blog about your perception of G-d.

    You might be surprised to find out the difference between the god you know and the G-d we know.

    Shalom,
    ND

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  23. No Doubt,

    I see you made your last comment right at the beginning of the Sabbath.

    Shabbat Shalom my friend.

    ReplyDelete
  24. "I truly meant that as a complimet. Why do you take it as an insult. Maybe, deep down inside, you doubt his knowledge."

    Yeah and maybe you eat shit and bark at the moon.
    That statement sounds like the kind of crap Glenn Beck would say.

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  25. Froggie,

    Dude!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have some serious issues. Might want to get some professional help. :-)

    HB

    ReplyDelete
  26. God is not the first cause in a line of dominoes. He is the first cause in a line of autonomous people who choose to walk about according to their own will. It is our fault not His. 

    Have you ignored completely your answers to my Q&A session in the other thread? Are you so unaware of the direct implications of those answers?

    You said that god knew his act of creation would result in a populated hell (of eternal torment).

    You said that god was in possession of this knowledge prior to his creative act.

    You said that god could have abstained from creating, or otherwise created in such a way that hell was not realized.


    As I asked in the other thread, and as I now beg of you in this one, show me just how in the hell you can say that god did not choose hell/evil based on these answers.

    This is getting ridiculous. 

    You're not kidding. My position is consistent, and follows from the direct implications of your position. Your refusal to come to grips with these direct implications is beyond frustrating, and the only amusing thing about it is the blatant cognitive dissonance you and your peers display when you consistently deny them (the implications).

    That dissonance-filled denial is about the only consistent thing going on with regard to your position.

    To use a Godwin to illustrate your nonsensical position: Your refusal to accept god's choice -- his preference -- to create in such a way that a populated hell (of eternal torment) would result is like saying Hitler was not responsible for the Holocaust, since the actual Nazis who turned on the gas had "free will" to disobey the orders. It's worse, though, which you so ignorantly deny, because Hitler didn't actually know his Nazi minions would follow his orders.

    Who chose to create a hell (of eternal torment)? 

    (Hint: It wasn't me, and it wasn't any other human.)

    --
    Stan

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  27. Stan,

    "You said that god knew his act of creation would result in a populated hell (of eternal torment).

    You said that god was in possession of this knowledge prior to his creative act.

    You said that god could have abstained from creating, or otherwise created in such a way that hell was not realized."


    That last point, I said "I assumed". The last one is irrelevant because God did not create it any other way and did not abstain from creating.

    "As I asked in the other thread, and as I now beg of you in this one, show me just how in the hell you can say that god did not choose hell/evil based on these answers."

    I have answered this a thousand times. God chose to create AUTONOMOUS people who choose their OWN ways. Yes God chose a situation that could cause evil but He did NOT choose evil, He just foreknew...NOT caused. WE ARE NOT DOMINOES which are made to fall and sin... from my understanding of the scriptures.

    Hitler ordered people to sin. God did not order people to sin.

    "Who chose to create a hell (of eternal torment)?"

    I have heard one preacher say that hell was made for the angels that rebelled and not for people. But people get sent there because it is a rubbish tip...

    "1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction."

    Although, I do not know if it is supported by scripture...I need to check that out sometime.

    (Hint: It wasn't me, and it wasn't any other human.)

    And murderers, thieves and rapists didn't make the prisons in our countries. The people that want justice make prisons. So God wants justice also.

    Dan

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  28. Jeremiah 18:

    1 ¶ The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying:
    2 "Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words."
    3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel.
    4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
    5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
    6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!
    7 "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,
    8 "if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.
    9 "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,
    10 "if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
    11 ¶ "Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good."’"
    12 And they said, "That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart."


    God wants to make us into a beautiful vase but we won't let Him. Read into the following chapter to see what happens.

    Dan

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  29. Da Bomb,

    I have answered this a thousand times. God chose to create AUTONOMOUS people who choose their OWN ways.

    Only that God decided to make these people of a sinful nature. Flesh and all.

    Yes God chose a situation that could cause evil but He did NOT choose evil,

    He did chose evil by allowing its creation to easily have a sinful nature. It had to know that his creation, even if it "was good." Was easily changeable so that all the descendants of the first two would inherit the sinful nature.

    He just foreknew...NOT caused.

    Yet he chose. An omni-everything being would have options for creating free-will without a sinful nature.

    WE ARE NOT DOMINOES which are made to fall and sin... from my understanding of the scriptures.

    Your understanding is biased by your indoctrination. To have a sinful nature means to be a domino made to fall and sin. If the sinful nature is due to Adam and Eve's disobedience, and God knew this would happen, it means he chose to create this way regardless.

    G.E.

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  30. That last point, I said "I assumed". The last one is irrelevant because God did not create it any other way and did not abstain from creating. 

    The "last point" was where you stated that god could have abstained from creating, quoted below:

    I have already answered you. Yes, as far as I know. 

    You said you "assumed so" that god was in possession of the knowledge that his creative act would result in a populated hell (of eternal torment), which, since this seems to be difficult for you, is the same as saying "yes."

    To say, though, that it is "irrelevant" that god could have abstained is to miss the point entirely, which, from this discussion and those leading up to it, should hardly come as a surprise.

    If he could have abstained, but didn't, and knew what the results would be, then he specifically chose a populated hell (of eternal torment). 

    Why is this so damned difficult for you? You're clearly not a moron, so why do you insist upon acting like one?

    If god knew a populated hell would result from creating, and created with this knowledge in his possession, and the ability to avoid this scenario, then he fucking chose it. I apologize for the expletive use, but figure it out. You cannot argue that god did not choose this without removing one or more of the attributes he is alleged to have.

    As to the dominoes, you're evidently too dense to get that, either. If "free will" is at all limited, then the whole of one's "free will" can be illustrated as the ability to alter the number and configuration of the dots on one's domino. A limit is a limit, and if it exists, then at least some aspect of "free will" is illusory. The domino analogy holds beautifully, yet you refuse to uncloud your vision when you see it. Clearly, you didn't follow the steps I outlined on my pathetic blog, or you'd still be in a coma.

    Tell you what -- don't worry about the dominoes; clearly, that illustration is far too complicated for your dissonance-induced simple mind. Instead, try to explain just how a god who knew what would result from a decision he didn't have to make didn't get what he chose.

    Try to explain how an omniscient, omnipotent god can ever not get what he chooses.

    --
    Stan

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  31. "I knew that looked familiar. That's in the same order as the Strong's concordance. Good job at cutting and pasting."

    ZOMG, you busted me, I don't know ancient Hebrew. I knew the word and verse off the top of my head but I used a concordance to look up the exact meaning. Oh for shame, I shall now go out and kill myself for being a fraud and huckster.

    Wait when did I claim to know ancient Hebrew? Oh, I never did, never mind.

    As for copying and pasting, that is hard to do from a book to a computer screen. Although the strong concordance is online, here is an actual copy paste from it:

    adj

    1. bad, evil
    1. bad, disagreeable, malignant
    2. bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
    3. evil, displeasing
    4. bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
    5. bad (of value)
    6. worse than, worst (comparison)
    7. sad, unhappy
    8. evil (hurtful)
    9. bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
    10. bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
    1. in general, of persons, of thoughts
    2. deeds, actions n m
    2. evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
    1. evil, distress, adversity
    2. evil, injury, wrong
    3. evil (ethical) n f
    3. evil, misery, distress, injury
    1. evil, misery, distress
    2. evil, injury, wrong
    3. evil (ethical)

    Yes exactly like my list. *sigh*

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  32. "Then I ask you the Euthyphro Dilemma. Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?"

    I don't know, there could be an element of truth in both. God has a character and acts according to that character.

    Dan


    Let me rephrase that, is there an outside source that God is beholden too from which good and evil are determined or is whatever God commands considered good?

    If God's nature is good, how do you know this? How do you know what is good and evil?

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  33. Beam Stalk,

    Whether copying from the internet or from a book, it is still cut and paste. I see you didn't dispute my main point. I appreciate that.

    ND

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  34. Stan,

    Come on....Honestly, is the language necessary to argue your point? Foul language is exibited by the desperate man. I know you are not desperate. You are an articulate and intelligent young man that has no need for crutches such as foul language.

    With all sincerity, as you get into the corporate world, the language will cause others not to take you seriously. You are far more intelligent than that, my friend.

    Shalom,
    ND

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  35. I've answered in a new thread.

    ReplyDelete