I heard Ray Comfort's message today with that title. I hadn't heard it before...It was hilerious all the way through! LOL.
I recommend it to all serious thinking people. Its a good illustration of the watchmaker argument. I tried to find a link to it but I failed. If anyone knows how to get it onto my blog as an audio please let me know. I had it given to me on a cd...its free to copy! YAY.
Is this the one where Ray asserts that everyone actually knows that God (the God of the Bible, to be specific) is real, but they just pretend they don't know because they love their sin?
ReplyDeleteOf course, he contradicts this himself, because in his own bio he says that he was an atheist (as does Kirk Cameron)
Also, I can't believe you just suggested the Watchmaker Argument to 'serious thinking people', could you expand on what you mean?
Matt
Um I think some of his messages are similar.
ReplyDeleteHe was saying that all atheists are actually agnostics. All Agnostics should not be agnostics and run from God for the same reason a theif runs from a a policeman.
Well, where there is a design there is a designer. He explained that if evolution happened, why do we not have ears around the wrong way and noses upside down etc. To me it seems if it happened to be guided because it is too perfect (in a lot of ways, in a lot of ways not, the curse).
You would have to listen to it to get the picture.
He was piointing out that there are laws in the air holding up tons and tons of water in clouds. He rang the weather man and asked what kept the water up there? He said vapour etc and the various laws holding it all together.
Ray would ask "Who put those laws there and decided that those laws would be those laws?".
He said the guy hung up. :)
I don't know if he would contradict himself...I might read his bio when I have time to.
Knowing Ray I would be suprised if he wouldn't admit that he "knew" there was a God but he didn't want to find Him...or something like that. So he claimed to be an atheist.
Or he means that atheists at some point in there life know that there is a God and when God revealed Himself to to him he then believed.
Romans 1:20-23 says "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, ---although they knew God---, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their ---foolish hearts were darkened---.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
So everyone once knew but some are now blind and their hearts ar darkened.
cheers,
Dan
Dan,
ReplyDelete"He was saying that all atheists are actually agnostics."I think we've covered this ground before, no?
"Well, where there is a design there is a designer."Are snowflakes designed? They certainly look designed.
You should read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins, he discussed how evolution is fully capable of bringing about things that have the appearance of design and why the human brain 'sees' design the way it does. It's less 'atheistic' than his other books, focusing on the biology, and is a really good read.
The rest of that paragraph is pure argument from ignorance; 'I can't understand how things are the way they are, therefore goddidit'.
I would seriously reconsider getting your science advice from a man (Ray Comfort) who thinks that;
* scientists think gravity evolved,
* males and females evolved separately
* dogs were blind before they evolved eyes
* light is invisible
* cancer should not be treated because it is a chastisement from God
Seriously. You can do better than that!
Regards,
Hey Matt!
ReplyDeleteYes we have covered that ground before of atheists and agnostics :)
Snow flakes...wonderful example. Something/Someone decided on the laws that water would condense itself in that manner of design.
I notice the way that some evolutionists speak regarding difficulties in evolution, for example.
I said to someone "which one came first? the heart or the blood?" you can't have only one and not the other in complex creatures.
They answered "look at trees, they don't have a heart".
I call this "evolutiondidit". I hope you see my point.
I wouldn't call Ray a scientist :) He does have good logic though.
Like how do you explain why our ears etc are around the right way? If evolution is un-guided why don't we have ears around the wrong way? It would not be a serious survival characteristic.
Richard Dawkins? Isn't he the one that would suggest ahead of the idea of God making us that aliens came and planted life on earth? Funny.
Maybe you could explain to me his reasons why everything only looks like it is designed and that it is not actually designed?
Imagine you were in the middle of a wilderness and you came across 10 stones exactly in line, all about the same size. No person in sight.
Would you say...it happened by chance? or someone before me must have placed them there like that?
Shalom,
Dan
Ok Dan,
ReplyDelete"I said to someone "which one came first? the heart or the blood?" you can't have only one and not the other in complex creatures.
They answered "look at trees, they don't have a heart"."Did someone actually say that to you? If they did then they're an idiot. We have a very good understanding of how the circulatory system came to be the way it is and it in no way involved trees.
"Like how do you explain why our ears etc are around the right way? If evolution is un-guided why don't we have ears around the wrong way? It would not be a serious survival characteristic."Early ears were like reptile ears; just holes in the head. Advantages mutations to this system would include the formation of skin around the ear-hole that would capture and focus vibrations more effectively.
Ears are the way they are because that is the most effective way for them to be. Questions like this highlight a severe lack of understanding of how evolution works.
"Richard Dawkins? Isn't he the one that would suggest ahead of the idea of God making us that aliens came and planted life on earth? Funny."Dan, we've been having a respectful conversation thus far, but I'm going to have to ask you to do some research, find out what was actually said and why and then come back to me with what you find. Otherwise you are just another parrot of Creationist lies. Yes, lies.
It must be extremely disheartening for you that people defending Creationism have to lie so often and so flagrantly to defend their position.
"Maybe you could explain to me his reasons why everything only looks like it is designed and that it is not actually designed?"It took Professor Dawkins at least 3 books to explain evolutionary biology to the lay person, do you really think that I'm going to be able to distill it for you in one comment? Read his book, if you're interested.
Evolution means that populations will tend to become better adapted to their environment. What doesn't work is discarded by natural selection - like pruning a hedge, only the well-adapted survive and, of course, those are the ones that look 'well-designed' for their environment.
Anyway, we'll deal with evolution in your new thread, for this one I'd like to see you find out what the deal is with Dawkins and the aliens.
Cheers,
Matt
Hey Matt,
ReplyDeletehttp://friendlyatheist.com/2009/04/07/ray-comfort-gives-apology-for-the-banana-video/
Second video down.
He said from his own mouth that if there was intelligent design it would have to be from aliens and not Someone who poped into existance which is a very inaccurate description of God.
God has always been...just as he would probably say (I'm guessing) that this universe or energy has always been.
Cya,
Dan
http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/04/07/ray-comfort-
ReplyDeletegives-apology-for-the-banana-video/
sorry the comment cut the end off the link?!!?
Ok, compare what you saw in Comfort's banana video (explain to me again how what he did with the coke can/banana was a parody) with what Richard Dawkins himself has to say on the matter.
ReplyDelete"Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred.
It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet.
Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws.
So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist.
I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett).
My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella!
Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings."Richard Dawkins
Do you think he believes that life on Earth was seeded by aliens?
Also, what about the rest of my comment?
ReplyDeleteShalom Matt,
ReplyDeleteNo I don't think that he believes aliens seeded life on earth. I NEVER said that, re-read my comment.
I said that he said: "that if there was intelligent design it would have to be from aliens".
I found it amusing that he was willing to place that as a better option than God.
Dan
"No I don't think that he believes aliens seeded life on earth. I NEVER said that, re-read my comment."But you linked to a video that very strongly implies that he does. Ray Comfort has repeatedly said that this is what Prof. Dawkins believes. THis is why Ray is frequently called a liar.
ReplyDeleteThere is the same evidence for the existence of intelligent non-Earth species that there is for any god. None.
He doesn't believe in either, but his belief is that complexity comes late in the universe, so starting out with an infinitely complex being is counter-intuitive.
Cheers,
Hey ya Matt,
ReplyDeleteThe link I gave of the video was to hear exactly what RD said from his mouth. That is all I meant by placing the link.
"There is the same evidence for the existence of intelligent non-Earth species that there is for any god. None."
Are you saying that? or are you saying RD said that?
Wiki says: "Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion...Evidence is the currency by which one fulfills the burden of proof."
There is evidence for aliens being real (although I reject it as being true)
There is evidence for God's existance (I accept this evidence as truth).
Cya,
Dan
Dan,
ReplyDeleteWhat is the evidence for the existence of aliens?
What is evidence for the existence of God?
Why do you reject one and accept the other?
Matt...
ReplyDelete"What is the evidence for the existence of aliens?"
Weird people who run around saying they were abducted by aliens. The claimed ufo sitings etc.
Of course I might be wrong and it all is just stories made up.
Or...they really did see something.
If someone I trusted and knew to be sane said they saw a ufo and someone else said similar...I would believe them. I would not accept them as aliens though. Satan is up to many tricks and I do not see why it would be so hard for him to distract people from God and make aliens the craze.
"What is evidence for the existence of God?"
1.Creation 2.Bible 3. Testimonies from people I know and trust.
"Why do you reject one and accept the other?"
Probably the same reason you reject the evidence for buddhism and accept evolution. You just know and are convinced that one is true and the other is not.
I could have put atheism instead of evolution...but you aren't 100% sure about atheism being correct, unlike evolution.(Keeping in mind our previous talks).
I hope I made sense?
Dan