I have recently discovered from atheist friends that the evidence for God would be in things such as answered prayer.
I thought I would try and focus on giving more evidences in this area in the future because it may be a little more relevant for some of you.
First of all I would like to talk about what prayer actually is.
I'll start with a quote from BathTub.
As for evidence for God? Well prayer working would be a good start. And all the associated effects that would entail. "I also tell you this: If two of you agree here on earth concerning anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you." That kind of tangible prayer effects. Not the completely meaningless 'Yes/No/Wait' excuse people use.
I'll come to an answer to this quote shortly.
I see prayer as communication with God. But even though we can attempt to talk to God He will not always listen:
Job 35:9 ¶ "Because of the multitude of oppressions they cry out; They cry out for help because of the arm of the mighty.
10 But no one says, ‘Where is God my Maker, Who gives songs in the night,
11 Who teaches us more than the beasts of the earth, And makes us wiser than the birds of heaven?’
12 There they cry out, but He does not answer, Because of the pride of evil men.
13 Surely God will not listen to empty talk, Nor will the Almighty regard it."
Zechariah 7:11 "But they refused to heed, shrugged their shoulders, and stopped their ears so that they could not hear.
12 "Yes, they made their hearts like flint, refusing to hear the law and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets. Thus great wrath came from the LORD of hosts.
13 "Therefore it happened, that just as He proclaimed and they would not hear, so they called out and I would not listen," says the LORD of hosts.
James 4: 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
God is not a wishlist kind of God, He is a person who happens to know what is best.
He still desires for us to communicate with Him. He even allows our prayers to influence or change his mind.
Genesis 18:23 ¶ And Abraham came near and said, "Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 "Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it?
25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
26 So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes."
27 Then Abraham answered and said, "Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord:
28 "Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?" So He said, "If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it."
29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, "Suppose there should be forty found there?" So He said, "I will not do it for the sake of forty."
30 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?" So He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
31 And he said, "Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?" So He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty."
32 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of ten."
33 So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.
2 Kings 20:4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
5 "Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD.
6 "And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David."’"
So when we take scripture in context God does answer prayer but the answer is not always yes, not always no, not always wait(which is another term for "no for now" :).
God is a Father and He knows what is best for us...
Luke 11: 10 "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
11 "If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?
12 "Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"
Notice how you can grab verse ten and stretch it to mean what you want it to mean? When in context it is talking about God giving us the Holy Spirit and not just anything we ask.
Back to BathTub's verse:
15 ¶ "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.
20 "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."
What do you notice about the context? Especially the context of the two or three? Jesus is talking about church government.
I am unsure whether verse 19 literally means "everything" when we compare scripture and context, the same applies to verse ten of Luke 11 above.
BathTub, I know your story that you shared about prayer ages ago and I am sad that it did not work out but I sincerely hope you will look past our expectations of God and trust Him to make the best decisions. Note that God has given us freewill and our actions are not to be blamed on God.
I hope I am of some help.
DP
P.S
A fresh testimony I heard the other day (Last weekend).
While out at some family friend's place having sharing times about what we have found in God's word and what God has been teaching us lately, a young lady joined us. She had just recently given her life to God but she had some struggles with depression, headaches and a lack of desire for food. Someone baptized her in the Holy Spirit and her headache disappeared instantly, her desire for food came back!
Praise God for His goodness to those who seek Him.
I'll be adding more and more testimonies as I come across ones I think are worth sharing.
cheers
Yes, Da Pilgrim, these Scriptural quotes are all well and good. But unfortunately they do nothing to show that prayers are answered in the real world. And your anecdote about the woman's headache disappearing is one isolated data point: I've had headaches disappear without prayer, too. Keep in mind: the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
ReplyDeleteIf you want to find out whether prayer is answered or not, you must study it properly. The biggest such study so far is Herbert Benson's of 2006, involving more than 1,800 cardiac patients. The results? Patients who didn't know they were being prayed for showed no difference; those who did know they were being prayed for did worse.
Another funny thing is that all the verifiable stories about prayer being answered involve things that are plausibly explained by other factors or chance. Give me an example of an amputee growing a new leg. Why doesn't this happen?
cheers from icy Vienna, zilch
Congratulations, you've just put together a good list of why not to expect anything from prayer.
ReplyDeleteI've always particularly liked the God's plan part, as it's the ultimate excuse for... well anything really.
At it's most basic there is no sign of prayer having any effect whatsoever. Remember I included associated effects. Now interestingly enough you've included the God sometimes allows people to influence/change his mind.
If prayer worked, even a weak effect, you would see it everwhere. Christians (the right christians) would live longer, divorce less, be healthier, more successful, happier,... the list really is endless.
That's if prayer had any effect.
But of course we don't see that.
What a load of rubbish you guys brought forth! I must say.
ReplyDeleteI expected better.
Zilch
But unfortunately they do nothing to show that prayers are answered in the real world
Of course not! Man, I was answering BathTub's misguided unbiblical, unchristian ideas about God and prayer, he set up a strawman and flogged it implying that God should answer every prayer with yes! (or similar).
I've had headaches disappear without prayer, too.
This is getting even more ridiculous. Of course they disappear! But it becomes an answer to prayer when it happens after prayer!
Patients who didn't know they were being prayed for showed no difference; those who did know they were being prayed for did worse.
Rubbish again. I have no idea about those experiments but my experience is that people get better. Like that young lady.
Did you read the whole article?
What is the one thing that God requires for healing? Surely you have read..."Your faith has made you well".
BathTub,
Congratulations, you've just put together a good list of why not to expect anything from prayer.
Rubbish. God told us to pray and so we do. He sometimes answers and sometimes with not the answer we were wanting.
At it's most basic there is no sign of prayer having any effect whatsoever.
Ay? What planet are you on?
Dig deeper and you may not deceive yourself so deeply.
If prayer worked, even a weak effect, you would see it everwhere.
It is everywhere. You refuse to look.
Christians (the right christians) would live longer, divorce less, be healthier, more successful, happier,... the list really is endless.
????????And the Chinese christians? should they be living in palaces?
And Jesus/Paul should have been rich?
And Jesus should have been all smiles? and yet sweat drops of blood?
And Jesus/Paul/Steven should have lived a long life?
By the way, divorce is terrible and it should not happen. But it does. Don't blame the acts of some (or most) on all Christianity.
Prosperity teaching is not biblical...it might be if you take texts out of context.
Is there one atheist person here that can even slightly acknowledge evidence when they come across it or are you all putting your fingers in your ears and saying "I don't want to believe this!"?
DP
I've had headaches disappear without prayer, too.
ReplyDeleteThis is getting even more ridiculous. Of course they disappear! But it becomes an answer to prayer when it happens after prayer!
Okay, so anything that proves your point is true, anything that does not can be ignored? Yeah. Okay then.
Hey Da Pilgrim! I said:
ReplyDeleteBut unfortunately they do nothing to show that prayers are answered in the real world
You replied:
Of course not! Man, I was answering BathTub's misguided unbiblical, unchristian ideas about God and prayer, he set up a strawman and flogged it implying that God should answer every prayer with yes! (or similar).
Okay, sorry, I misinterpreted you as saying that God answers prayer. It's not clear that that's not what you meant.
I've had headaches disappear without prayer, too.
This is getting even more ridiculous. Of course they disappear! But it becomes an answer to prayer when it happens after prayer!
You might want to think about that a bit, Da. So if my headache disappears after I pray to the FSM, or to my doorknob, was that an answer to prayer? If not, how can you tell? Not much intellectual rigor here.
Patients who didn't know they were being prayed for showed no difference; those who did know they were being prayed for did worse.
Rubbish again. I have no idea about those experiments but my experience is that people get better. Like that young lady.
In other words, "la la la I can't hear you, and I don't care what happens in a scientific double-blind experiment- I'm not even going to read it- I'm right!" Sorry, that won't cut it with us reality-informed types.
Did you read the whole article?
I did indeed. Did you read my link?
Da Pilgrim, there's nothing to discuss here if you simply insist you are right and what we say is rubbish. If we want to establish what goes on in the real world there are rules to be followed. What you are doing is the equivalent of tipping over the chessboard, scattering the pieces, and hooting "I win!" I expected better of you.
cheers from icy Vienna, zilch
Oops, I see that PersFail also answered. What she said too.
ReplyDeleteDa Pilgrim,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your efforts at clarification. But can you not see how, from the outside, there is no discernible difference between prayer working and not working?
Say you have two Christians who are terminally ill; one dies, one makes a full recovery - which one prayed, and if they did, did it work?
Maybe one prayed to get better and God said OK!
Maybe one prayed to get better and God said No.
Maybe one prayed for their suffering to end (die) and God said OK!
Maybe one prayed for their suffering to end (die) and God said No.
Maybe that one didn't pray at all!
Every single base is covered, so that there's no conceivable way that prayer could not be responsible for whatever happened.
So from the outside - that's not very convincing, is it?
Our view of prayer may not be Biblical, but it would be far more effective as evidence for God if our view of prayer was seen in the real world. The Biblical view, I'm afraid, just doesn't cut the mustard.
Regards,
Codswallop.
ReplyDeleteYou've tied yourself into the simple contradiction that I was pointing out.
You quite clearly said "He even allows our prayers to influence or change his mind."
That is an effect. And should be noticeable.
Which means Christians who pray (the right Christians) should be identifiable.
But if the result of this prayful influence is that Christians (the right Christians) aren't any better off than everyone else (including the wrong Christians) then there is no effect.
You can't say it works, when 'it works' means 'does nothing worth noting'.
Zilch wrote I've had headaches disappear without prayer, too.
ReplyDeleteDa Pilgrim responded with the following: This is getting even more ridiculous. Of course they disappear! But it becomes an answer to prayer when it happens after prayer!
Why?
How could we distinguish between a headache disappearing after prayer because the person has relaxed, or because the prayer was answered by God?
By your explanation here, we could not tell the difference. It seems to me that YOU can't tell the difference either, though you're eager to claim "prayer works".
Da Pilgrim, there's nothing to discuss here if you simply insist you are right and what we say is rubbish.
ReplyDeleteThere was no acknowledgment from you guys that pray does have evidence of working..which I am ticked off at. It makes me realize how biased you seekers really are.
I did read that article.
What you are doing is the equivalent of tipping over the chessboard, scattering the pieces, and hooting "I win!" I expected better of you.
Where are you getting this from?
All I am expecting is a little more participation or unbiasedness to at least consider why this girl got better after she was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Coincidence or evidence for God. You guys obviously claim coincidence.
Yet all you guys can say is "My headaches disappear too".
In other words, "la la la I can't hear you, and I don't care what happens in a scientific double-blind experiment- I'm not even going to read it- I'm right!" Sorry, that won't cut it with us reality-informed types.
LOL, you call that scientific experiments!
You are working with people...working with God and putting Him in a test tube.
There are unconstant variables involved.
As we know from God's Word, people's hearts etc has more to do with getting healed than "just pray and get healed".
(I did read the article and at the end whoever those praying people were claimed that their prayers do work)
My summary point.
Don't laugh, don't jump to conclusions.
Consider evidence unbiasedly.
Don't tear apart something that you don't believe is true because of past experience...consider that it could be true or else you are no better than the wipers of the chess board "I win". I am not asking you to believe what I say is true (that would be nice) but at least show some obvious admittance to an interesting testimony.
Da Pilgrim,
ReplyDeleteWhy should we consider that to be true, when we haven't been given a reason to do so, and it's not testable?
If I told you that I had psionic abilities to remove cramps, would you believe me simply based on me saying that I thought really hard about it and suddenly a woman's cramping stopped?
Why, or why not?
What if there were other people who said that they had the mutant (think X-Men) superpower of healing hands, and were able to heal a woman's cramping, and that it wasn't possible for it to happen psionically.
Would you believe them, or me? Or neither? Why?
What exactly are your problems, in detail, with the double-blind test described in the comments above?
Da Pilgrim,
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference to note here. It’s one thing to say that ‘prayer works’ and another to say that ‘prayer works because of God’s actions’.
Prayer can help to relieve stress, aches and pains as well as working to achieve clarity and a clear purpose of thought….as can meditation, or exercise, or praying to a toaster or Zeus. Many drugs can bring about the exact same effect, as can hypnosis or new age remedies. The human mind is capable of some pretty funky things, so the question becomes; ‘how can you be sure that prayer works because God wills it so rather than prayer having an effect because of how the human brain works’?
I would contend that the only reason you think that prayer works (through God’s actions) is because you already believe in God and so ascribe – pretty much anything – to His actions. For someone who does not already believe in an intercessionary God, what evidence is there for them to think that God is acting in the world when there doesn’t appear to be any discernable difference between the prayer-habits (or lack thereof) and physical results of pretty much every demographic of people on the planet?
I will say that I find faith-healing testimonies interesting though.
Cheers,
Da Pilgrim,
ReplyDeletethese people have determined that God does not and can not exist.
You could have Jesus appear to them as He did to Paul and they still would not believe.
No evidence would convince them because they are already convinced of what they want to believe. Any evidence to contradict their chosen faith would be rejected.
Remember all of the people who witnessed Jesus' miracles? Most still rejected Him.
People have to be willing to receive the truth before they'll accept evidence as proof of that truth.
No evidence would convince them because they are already convinced of what they want to believe
ReplyDeleteI believe psychologists refer to behavior like this as projection...
Onesimus incorrectly wrote:
ReplyDelete"these people have determined that God does not and can not exist."
And you know this... how? Did anyone in this comment thread say anything like this?
What is your basis for saying what you think we think when it's not at all what we actually think?
Mind-reading... you're doing it wrong.
Here, just for you, Onesimus:
I have not determined that God does not exist.
I have not determined that God cannot exist.
So, will you retract your projections, and recognize that you don't know what your demonized targets actually think?
This is getting even more ridiculous. Of course they disappear! But it becomes an answer to prayer when it happens after prayer!
ReplyDeleteSo. If you are on your knees praying and someone sneaks up behind you and busts a cap in your skull that would be God's answer to your prayer.
Or if you are a woman in an abusive relationship and you pray that your relationship improves and your husband gets hit by a truck, that was God's answer to your prayer.
This is such a silly game you play. If you pray for the headache to end and it does it's a miracle. If it doesn't then it's God's plan.
LOL, you call that scientific experiments!
ReplyDeleteWhy yes. That's how science works.
You are working with people...working with God and putting Him in a test tube.
People about to undergo surgery were prayed for. Some didn't know they were prayed for. Some did. Some weren't prayed for. The one's who knew they were being prayed for did worse than the ones who didn't, whether they were prayed for or not. It's typical that you would dismiss anything that doesn't fit nicely into the little hole you live in.
There are unconstant variables involved.
Interesting word choice there... One of the definitions was "fickle." That certainly describes a lot of Christians. But what was "unconstant" about this experiment? I see you are angry that anyone would presume to "put God into a test tube."
I'll give you a mulligan here bubba. There are two possible interpretations of the outcome for the prayer experiment. Either prayer doesn't work and can actually have a negative effect if you know you are being prayed for, or your God willfully refused to answer any of the prayers and actually caused the poor saps who were aware of being prayed for to feel worse.
Why would your benevolent God do something like that? If the experiment ended up favoring prayer over non prayer by even the slightest amount it would have been a big win for Christianity. It definitely would have made me sit up and listen. I thought the idea was to save as many souls as possible. This smells like the argument that God made everything look old just to mess with our minds. Planting all these extinct fossils to make it look like the earth is billions of years old or erasing any evidence of a global flood.
As we know from God's Word, people's hearts etc has more to do with getting healed than "just pray and get healed".
Are you saying the people who prayed weren't sincerely praying for positive outcomes? Or are you saying that they weren't proper Christians. You really didn't read up on it, did you?
Nohm said:
ReplyDelete“Here, just for you, Onesimus:
I have not determined that God does not exist.
I have not determined that God cannot exist.
So, will you retract your projections, and recognize that you don't know what your demonized targets actually think?”
-----
Ok then.
“these people[except Nohm] have determined that God does not and cannot exist."
The fact is Nohm, I have seen the same old rhetoric over and over again from people who HAVE determined that God does not exist and that God cannot exist.
I also know for a fact that those who are willingly and genuinely looking for evidence of God will find it – as long as they are also willing to submit to the consequences of that discovery.
God is not in the business of merely satisfying the curiosity of self-centred man.
If you read the previous thread no one has "determined that God does not and cannot exist."
ReplyDeleteSo frankly Onesimus, your mind reading is terrible.
Here is a simple question for you. Does prayer work or not?
Onesimus unfortunately wrote:
ReplyDelete"these people[except Nohm] have determined that God does not and cannot exist."
Sigh.
Ok, I'll repeat what I wrote before:
And you know this... how? Did anyone in this comment thread say anything like this?
What is your basis for saying what you think they think when it's not at all what they actually think?
Mind-reading... you're doing it wrong.
Onesimus also wrote:
"The fact is Nohm, I have seen the same old rhetoric over and over again from people who HAVE determined that God does not exist and that God cannot exist."
Ok, so here's an idea:
Take it up with them, not us, because we haven't determined that
Also, Onesimus, it's my experience that when people, like yourself, say such things, they completely misinterpreted what the other person actually said.
Is it possible that you did the same? That is, is it possible that you interpreted them as thinking "God does not and cannot exist" when that's actually not at all what they said or think?
I don't question that some people have this point of view; I just don't think that it's anywhere as wide-spread as you appear to think it is.
"as long as they are also willing to submit to the consequences of that discovery."
ReplyDeleteI am always willing to submit to the consequences of any discovery.
Acceptance for the win.
BathTub said...
ReplyDeleteIf you read the previous thread no one has "determined that God does not and cannot exist."
So frankly Onesimus, your mind reading is terrible.
Here is a simple question for you. Does prayer work or not?
------
No mind reading. I've read enough of the comments throughout the rest of this blog.
And yes prayer does work.
But it is not a vending machine where anyone can put in their money and obtain what THEY want with no regard to God and His ways.
Too many want a God who conforms to their own desires instead of a God who is the Creator of the universe.
They reject God because He doesn't conform to their expectations - He won't be a tame God running around,like a slave to satisfy mankind's lusts.
---
Nohm said...
I am always willing to submit to the consequences of any discovery.
Then you would be totally willing to give up all of your personal ambition and to turn your life over to God's will completely. You would be willing to give your life for Him (literally)?
I wrote:
ReplyDeleteI am always willing to submit to the consequences of any discovery.
And then Onesimus replied:
Then you would be totally willing to give up all of your personal ambition and to turn your life over to God's will completely. You would be willing to give your life for Him (literally)?
If that was reality, yes. What am I going to do, fight against reality? That's a losing proposition.
So, yes, if I thought what you just described was reality, I would be willing to give my life for Him, especially because we're talking about an eternal afterlife here, so "giving up my life" really isn't all that much, in that scenario.
However, I have no reason to believe that that is reality.
And here's the thing that you don't seem to currently understand, Onesimus: I bet you that many atheists would say the same thing.
If you think Prayer works then it should be detectable.
ReplyDeleteIf Christian headaches are healed at a better rate than non-christians then we should be able to see.
If Christian headaches aren't healed at a better rate than non-christians...Then what's the point?
And these prayers can be totally non-selfish. Pray for others. it should still be noticeable.
The usual excuse given is 'God's plan'. But Dan specifically allowed for changes in God's plan.
Onesimus wrote:
ReplyDelete"I've read enough of the comments throughout the rest of this blog."
Ok then, so you agree with me and BathTub that no one here is claiming that God cannot and does not exist, right? Therefore, like I asked you to do before, you'll retract your statements on this matter, right?
Nohm said:
ReplyDeleteOk then, so you agree with me and BathTub that no one here is claiming that God cannot and does not exist, right?
---
No I do not agree.
It would seem to me that the results of the scientific experiment are conclusive.
ReplyDeleteConclusion: When being observed and tested by science, God does not answer prayers (or answers them with a "No").
Extrapolation: Skeptics and critical thinkers often instinctively apply the scientific method to all their experiences. It is simply a part of the way their mind is configured: they test concepts thoroughly before integrating them into their worldview. Therefore God does not answer the prayers of skeptic's.
Ergo: God hates critical thinking and skepticism.
...
Well that explains a lot.
Oh, and just to save Onesimus the effort of breaking out the telepathy:
ReplyDelete"I believe this statement to be true: the God of Christianity could and might exist, but the simpler explanation for material phenomena is that he does not."
I asked:
ReplyDelete"Ok then, so you agree with me and BathTub that no one here is claiming that God cannot and does not exist, right?"
Onesimus replied:
"No I do not agree."
Ok then, who is claiming that God cannot and does not exist?
James wrote the following: "I believe this statement to be true: the God of Christianity could and might exist, but the simpler explanation for material phenomena is that he does not."
ReplyDeleteThis generally represents my opinion as well.
Correction: who here is claiming that God cannot and does not exist?
ReplyDeleteYour original claim was:
"these people have determined that God does not and can not exist."
Onesimus: I, too, am waiting with bated breath to hear from you: which commenters here have "determined that God does not and can not exist"? Not me, nor anyone else, as far as I can tell.
ReplyDeleteDa Pilgrim: like the others here, I'm perfectly willing to believe that God exists, and that He answers prayer. Like Nohm, I want to go with reality, and if reality means God and answered prayer, then that's the way I want to go.
But how can you blame us for following the evidence? And so far I've seen no evidence that God exists, or that prayer is answered, and there's lots of evidence that people make up gods all the time, and that prayer is not answered more often than chance and/or wishful thinking can explain. Thus, while I remain open-minded, I will provisionally go with the simpler explanation: God does not exist, and prayer is not answered. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears (or eyes).
cheers from chilly Vienna, zilch
Onesimus,
ReplyDeletethese people have determined that God does not and can not exist.
You could have Jesus appear to them as He did to Paul and they still would not believe.
No evidence would convince them because they are already convinced of what they want to believe. Any evidence to contradict their chosen faith would be rejected.
Remember all of the people who witnessed Jesus' miracles? Most still rejected Him.
People have to be willing to receive the truth before they'll accept evidence as proof of that truth.
You know what?
There is so much truth to what you have just said here!
Thankyou.
I won't say all atheists are closed minded, but I would say the majority of those I have met seem to be, though they claim not to be.
They say things like (I'll grab the closest quote :)):
Thus, while I remain open-minded, I will provisionally go with the simpler explanation: God does not exist, and prayer is not answered. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears (or eyes)..
But really they want to be struck by lightning before they believe.
I have just given evidence and they refuse it and make statements that prayer does not get answered.
EPM said:
I would contend that the only reason you think that prayer works (through God’s actions) is because you already believe in God and so ascribe
I believe prayer works because unlikely things happen in the positive when prayers are answered "yes".
There are sooo many testimonies that are like WOW! testimonies that I have heard or read. Ever read "the cross and the switchblade"? "The narrow road" by brother Andrew? "The heavenly man" about brother Yun? ever read George Muller? Ever read Corrie ten Boom's stories?
I mean to get the details but here is a rough testimony of a friend I know who did not believe in God at the time and was struggling financially. She went out onto her back lawn/paddock and prayed that if God were real that could He help her. She looked down and there was a twenty dollar note on the ground that she spotted...on a windy day.
Coincidence? (She lives on a back country road, not in town)
Regarding that experiment,
Matthew 4:7
"7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’""
"tempt" means to test.
And faith is a requirement for being healed as Jesus repeatedly taught.
DP
Note: I don't have time to answer all of you... :)
ReplyDeleteSometimes I have to make broad strokes to answer all.
DP
Zilch,
ReplyDeletelike the others here, I'm perfectly willing to believe that God exists, and that He answers prayer. Like Nohm, I want to go with reality, and if reality means God and answered prayer, then that's the way I want to go.
I sincerely hope you are honest,
I go for reality also.
To put it simply as I have said many a time, I don't have enough faith to believe all this (the nature of our universe, answered prayer, the Bible etc) is an accident or coincidence.
If I denied my belief in God I would be taking on a greater belief in my opinion, and that would be the assumption that there is no God.
I don't see a middle ground.
By your stance you disbelieve in the christian God (Or believe in a godless universe, how ever you want to put it) and my stance is that there is a Christian God.
I won't say all atheists are closed minded, but I would say the majority of those I have met seem to be, though they claim not to be.
ReplyDeleteThey say things like (I'll grab the closest quote :)):
Thus, while I remain open-minded, I will provisionally go with the simpler explanation: God does not exist, and prayer is not answered. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears (or eyes)..
But really they want to be struck by lightning before they believe.
I have just given evidence and they refuse it and make statements that prayer does not get answered.
Da Pilgrim: I don't want to be struck by lightning before I believe: in the first place, I probably wouldn't be in any condition to believe anything at all afterwards. In the second place, I would happily settle for something less dramatic: evidence that meets normal scientific standards. Until then, as I said, I'll stick with my simpler explanation.
And your evidence, sad to say, does not meet scientific standards. All you have offered is a few anecdotes, with a very small sample size, no controls, no double blind, and no documentation. As I and others here have said, chance and wishful thinking can explain these phenomena better.
For instance, if you have no idea how many times prayer is not answered, you are in no position to say that it ever is answered. And simply saying that God does not always answer begs the question: if God's performance in answering prayer is no better than chance (and you've presented no evidence so far that it is, and the study I linked to, the largest of its kind, found no such evidence), then what does it mean to say that "God answers prayer"? I could just as well say that if I do a little dance to the Ethereal Cosmic Catfish, and something good happens, then that's proof that the ECC exists and that It answers prayer.
And about prayer transforming lives: there's no doubt in my mind that this happens quite often, but there's no proof that any God is involved. Believing that one is being helped, and submitting oneself to some kind of discipline, religious or otherwise, can obviously change one's life. Many Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists, and members of AA, for that matter, have the same kind of story. Should we not believe them, but believe in similar stories told by Christians?
cheers from chilly Vienna, zilch
Zilch,
ReplyDeleteShould we not believe them, but believe in similar stories told by Christians?
I do believe in the supernatural and God is not the only supernatural being at work...there is a deceiver out there... but hwy am saying this when you do not even believe in him either?
For instance, if you have no idea how many times prayer is not answered, you are in no position to say that it ever is answered.
So are you saying that no matter how amazing a "coincidence" you still will not believe because most of the time (to you) prayer is not answered?
And your evidence, sad to say, does not meet scientific standards. All you have offered is a few anecdotes, with a very small sample size, no controls, no double blind, and no documentation. As I and others here have said, chance and wishful thinking can explain these phenomena better.
Well, only one thing I can say really.
It is your choice to believe what you believe and there is not much that I can do about it.
cheers,
DP
Nohm wrote the following: who here is claiming that God cannot and does not exist?
ReplyDeleteI am making no such claim.
I will confess that I'm skeptical of the Christian God, as described by the Bible and individual Christians. However, I'm not 100% certain that he/she/it doesn't actually exist.
In my mind, God's existence is more probable when the Christian conception of Him is ruled out.
So are you saying that no matter how amazing a "coincidence" you still will not believe because most of the time (to you) prayer is not answered?
ReplyDeleteNot exactly. How amazing is a "coincidence" of a prayer seemingly being answered, when there are hundreds or thousands of prayers not being answered? That's like putting the number from one to a hundred in a hat, and everyone prays that they draw number one, and after a hundred people draw, the one person who drew the number one claims that their prayer was answered. Unless you have statistics, you can't say what constitutes an "amazing" coincidence.
Oh, and this deserves an answer too. I asked:
ReplyDeleteShould we not believe them, but believe in similar stories told by Christians?
You replied:
I do believe in the supernatural and God is not the only supernatural being at work...there is a deceiver out there... but hwy am saying this when you do not even believe in him either?
So, if a Hindu prays for his child to get well, and it does, then the Devil was responsible? Why should I believe that? The Hindu might say the same about Christians. How can I know whom to trust?
Da Pilgrim wrote:
ReplyDelete"I mean to get the details but here is a rough testimony of a friend I know who did not believe in God at the time and was struggling financially. She went out onto her back lawn/paddock and prayed that if God were real that could He help her. She looked down and there was a twenty dollar note on the ground that she spotted...on a windy day."
So, I have read and listened to multiple variations of this exact story. Someone was praying for something, and when they looked down, or in their wallet, or in their purse, they found just the amount of money that they needed.
I find this to be the most offensive argument for prayer-being-answered.
In short, so God is able to provide this woman with $20, probably a relatively minor amount of money for her (unless she was homeless or something), but the starving and diseased children all around the world? I guess they're just not praying hard enough.
That your God would find it a better plan to provide a 1st world country woman with a $20 bill, and yet do absolutely nothing for the starving and diseased children all around the world, is something I find to be revolting in the extreme.
Your story is dispersuasive.
Da Pilgrim wrote:
ReplyDelete"To put it simply as I have said many a time, I don't have enough faith to believe all this (the nature of our universe, answered prayer, the Bible etc) is an accident or coincidence."
And many of us don't either, which is why we find it strange that people like yourself incorrectly use words like "accident" or "random chance" to describe our opinions, while some of us (myself included) are determinists. That's why I asked you to research the words "determinism" and "emergence"...
So that you could understand what I actually think, inside of slapping your straw man around.
Darn, that last sentence should be:
ReplyDeleteSo that you could understand what I actually think, instead of slapping your straw man around.
Da Pilgrim, you think that we believe that the universe is an accident. I'm a determinist. Determinists don't believe in any such thing as an "accident", in the way that you are currently using the word.
This goes back again to my confusion: why do people such as yourself, No Doubt, and Onesimus keep telling us what we think, when it's not at all what we think?
Don't you find that strange?
Da Pilgrim Wrote:
ReplyDeleteTo put it simply as I have said many a time, I don't have enough faith to believe all this (the nature of our universe, answered prayer, the Bible etc) is an accident or coincidence.
If I denied my belief in God I would be taking on a greater belief in my opinion, and that would be the assumption that there is no God.
I don't see a middle ground.
Ah. This then, is why you do not understand our opinion's or worldview. You have described only two possible options: that everything happened by "accident or coincidence," or that the God of the Creationists exists.
Nobody here believe that everything happened by "accident or coincidence." We believe that it happened according to measurable natural and statistical laws.
In addition, there are many options in between atheism and Creationism. Just ask Whateverman.
You are presenting both a Strawman of our opinions, and a False Dichtomy between said strawman and your own opinion. Worse, I don't think you are doing this deliberately: I think you are really truly unable to understand that we don't believe it all happened by "accident or coincidence".
We're not the sort of people to let an easily spotted flaw in our worldview stand: ergo, if you easily spot a flaw, it's most likely because you don't understand our worldview. Please, do me a favor: try to understand the universe from our point of view, and thus understand us.
Ah. This then, is why you do not understand our opinion's or worldview. You have described only two possible options: that everything happened by "accident or coincidence," or that the God of the Creationists exists.
ReplyDeleteNobody here believe that everything happened by "accident or coincidence." We believe that it happened according to measurable natural and statistical laws.
When I mean accident I mean unguided, unplanned, it just happened...sorry for the unclarity.
Are you a determinist?
Wow, I have never actually met one. So there was nothing you could possibly have done to not have this conversation with me?
In short, so God is able to provide this woman with $20, probably a relatively minor amount of money for her (unless she was homeless or something), but the starving and diseased children all around the world? I guess they're just not praying hard enough.
? So you blame God for all the wrong in the world? God is a personal God as I believe, if he gives $20 to one person and not to the other whats that to you? None of us in this world deserve anything, if God were fair then we would not be here. The sickness and lack of food is our fault as mankind.
Oh, and if you are a determinist...did you know that there is no right and wrong? Why are you complaining? One cause causes another and there are no "decisions" about right and wrong, none can "decide" to help the poor people. Life is an illusion, so is right and wrong...there is no freewill, we just do what the previous cause told us to do. In that case I can't believe in thought because we don't think freely as we know it...we just do because we do.
Huh, I could go on. fascinating. just to make sure we are on the right page this is the meaning I get for determinism:
Determinism is the view that every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
This goes back again to my confusion: why do people such as yourself, No Doubt, and Onesimus keep telling us what we think, when it's not at all what we think?
When I reply to the statement from atheists "I have no belief, I just disbelieve in the existence of God",
When I say that I don't have a belief, that I simply disbelieve in the non-existence of God...why do atheists kick up a stink?
Probably for similar reasons that I kick up a stink when you guys try to say you are neutral. You are either for God or against Him, if you don't think there is no God then I BET my top dollar you don't live like there is one, so you have CHOSEN your belief and that is atheism...NO-GOD, until further notice.
Walk the talk.
DP
Zilch,
ReplyDeleteSo, if a Hindu prays for his child to get well, and it does, then the Devil was responsible? Why should I believe that? The Hindu might say the same about Christians. How can I know whom to trust?
Don't believe my statement previous if do not desire, I am just explaining what I believe.
Unless you have statistics, you can't say what constitutes an "amazing" coincidence.
?
LOL, this is unreasonable. Forget what happens elsewhere. Calculate every situation according to itself.
What is the probablity that she found the note at that minute, at that spot...in the countryside, at that moment after she prayed? And you say it is coincidence?
This is just ONE testimony.
If I aim to flip a coin 20 times and predict a pattern that it will land 10 times on heads and 10 on tails.
If I am flipping and I have attained 10 heads and 1 tail, to follow the original PATTERN or prediction 50/50 we need 9 more tails.
Does the overall probability have affect? or does EACH flip of the coin have its OWN affect on the outcome.
I hope you see my point. One unlikely circumstance (especially regarding prayer) most logically is a miracle.
James,
Please, do me a favor: try to understand the universe from our point of view, and thus understand us.
Likewise.
cheers,
guys
I said:
ReplyDeleteOh, and if you are a determinist...did you know that there is no right and wrong? Why are you complaining? One cause causes another and there are no "decisions" about right and wrong, none can "decide" to help the poor people. Life is an illusion, so is right and wrong...there is no freewill, we just do what the previous cause told us to do. In that case I can't believe in thought because we don't think freely as we know it...we just do because we do.
...let me know if I am wrong and you are a different type of determinist.
"The sickness and lack of food is our fault as mankind"
ReplyDeleteHow is it not God's fault for not creating Satan in the first place?
"When I say that I don't have a belief, that I simply disbelieve in the non-existence of God...why do atheists kick up a stink?"
Because it's just a silly double negative. "I simply believe in the existence of God" is all you've said.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletelol wrong blog.
ReplyDeleteDa Pilgrim, is it possible that people believe things somewhere in between "God did it" and "It happened by chance"?
ReplyDeleteDo you think you've ever conversed with a person like this (ie. an inbetweener)?
Hey Da! I said:
ReplyDeleteUnless you have statistics, you can't say what constitutes an "amazing" coincidence.
You answered:
?
LOL, this is unreasonable. Forget what happens elsewhere. Calculate every situation according to itself.
What is the probablity that she found the note at that minute, at that spot...in the countryside, at that moment after she prayed? And you say it is coincidence?
This is just ONE testimony.
Sorry if this seems "unreasonable" to you- I call it "the scientific method", and following the scientific method is the only way to decide whether something is an "amazing coincidence" or not. As I said, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data", and unless you have also counted all the times prayer was not answered, your claim that this is evidence for prayer being answered is wishful thinking.
If I aim to flip a coin 20 times and predict a pattern that it will land 10 times on heads and 10 on tails.
If I am flipping and I have attained 10 heads and 1 tail, to follow the original PATTERN or prediction 50/50 we need 9 more tails.
Does the overall probability have affect? or does EACH flip of the coin have its OWN affect on the outcome.
The answer is simple: since coins have no memory, then it doesn't matter what went on before: we should expect, on the average, 50% heads and 50% tails. Believing otherwise, for instance that after a long run of heads that you're more likely to get tails, is called the "gambler's fallacy", and it is very widespread.
I hope you see my point. One unlikely circumstance (especially regarding prayer) most logically is a miracle.
Yes, I see your point, but it's just your assertion, and as I and others have shown, it's got no evidence to back it up. Such stories may seem compelling evidence to you of prayer being answered, but you're not looking at the whole picture. The world is a big complicated place, and many things happen all the time that are extremely unlikely. It's amazingly unlikely that I would have ended up here, in a workshop in the sixteenth district of Vienna. But is that a miracle or somehow inexplicable? No.
If someone wins the lottery, they may look at that as an "amazing coincidence", or if they prayed for money they may be convinced that God answered their prayer. But is it amazing that some person somewhere won the lottery? No- in fact, the way lotteries work, it's inevitable that someone, somewhere, will eventually win. To judge properly whether or not winning the lottery is amazing, you must obviously also consider how many people did not win the lottery, don't you? That is what you are not doing with regards to prayer, and that is why your anecdotes are statistically useless.
cheers from icy Vienna, zilch
Wow. I've been away for quite a while, eh?
ReplyDeleteLet me see if I can sum up DP's claim succintly:
[Paraphrasing DP]
Prayer works, because in a pure application of confirmation bias on samples only fitting a narrow set of criteria designed to support the claim that prayer works, the request stipulated in the prayer was granted.
[/Paraphrasing DP]
Note, of course, that the things being requested are trivial, and any of them could have occurred as a result of an number of natural coincidences.
DP, your claims are not only unconvincing, but they're absurd and juvenile.
You evidently maintain that a Mormon's prayer that his child's flu symptoms vanish could well be answered by a demonic influence of some kind -- in the positive, that is -- or, in the absence of any demonic answer, it could seem to have been answered by way of the child's immune system fighting off the virus, or by way of proper rest and nourishment.
In other words, you have no way of determining just how said Mormon's prayer was answered, apart from pure assertion.
In the case of a True Christian™, it seems you would claim his prayer of exactly the same nature was answered by god, if and only if it was answered in the positive.
Is this characterization inaccurate?
Even if you would claim it to be inaccurate, do you not see the nonsense employed by claiming an unbelieving woman's financial and spiritual woes were solved by a discovery of $20 was due to an answered prayer, yet the livelihood of millions of humans worldwide, who struggle daily to find food, water, and even shelter, goes essentially ignored, despite the fact that billions of Christians pray for their provision every day?
Is god, in his infinite wisdom and omnipotence, so capricious? Is he the sort to provide a measly $20 to a woman who had a home (and, presumably, food), yet ignore the pleas of millions for a scant meal?
If that's your god, and if that's your notion of 'answered prayer,' then you can have both -- they're useless. If you think I'm somehow being obtuse by denying your 'evidence,' then you are a pitifully misguided fool.
If you still refuse to admit that your 'evidence' is pathetic, I challenge you to light my barbecue through the power of prayer. Never mind the notion that we should not 'test' god -- such a simple illustration was successfully demonstrated by Elijah (or so you should believe), if you recall, so surely it is something god would still consider. Don't worry about its location, either -- surely your god knows already where I live and where at my residence my barbecue lies.
Will you not prove prayer works?
Pray harder! Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.
...or, I suppose, you could choose one of two options:
1) Your claims regarding prayer being answered are specious.
2) While it was once acceptable to test god in this manner, it no longer is; furthermore, answers to prayer are indistinguishable from apparent coincidence and/or natural phenomena.
I anxiously await red coals for my steaks.
--
Stan
Better yet, Stan, let's have a contest. DP can pray to God to light your barbecue, and I will pray to the Invisible Pink Unicorn to not light your barbecue. That way we can see who is more powerful. My money is on Her Pinkness.
ReplyDeleteYou might want to put those steaks back in the fridge and order pizza, Stan.
cheers from icy Vienna, zilch
Pray harder! Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.
ReplyDeleteMaybe He is not interested in dealing with hard people like you that aren't interested in finding Him?
I know our other discussions and you say you would not even bow down to Him if He were real because you consider Him to be evil.
Is god, in his infinite wisdom and omnipotence, so capricious? Is he the sort to provide a measly $20 to a woman who had a home (and, presumably, food), yet ignore the pleas of millions for a scant meal?,
I have already answered this earlier.
I don't think $20 is all God's answer but rather a sign.
Call it a coincidence if you like but I don't have the faith to call it that.
BathTub,
Because it's just a silly double negative. "I simply believe in the existence of God" is all you've said.
And for you to say that you simple disbelieve in the existence of God is by default believing in a universe without God because you deny God...until further notice.
Why not say "I currently believe in a godless universe"? instead of saying "I don't know".
If I say I disbelieve in a godless universe then I am believing a positive. A UNIVERSE WITHOUT GOD IS A GODLESS UNIVERSE... A POSITIVE universe without God.
Zilch!
ReplyDeleteWow! I did not know you believed in the invisible pink unicorn!
Da!
ReplyDeleteLet's just say I have just as much faith in Her Horny Pinkness as I do in Jehovah, Killer of Babies.
Maybe He is not interested in dealing with hard people like you that aren't interested in finding Him?
ReplyDeleteHe certainly appeared interested in dealing with "hard people" like me when he so dramatically answered Elijah's call in the face of the prophets of Baal... You're probably right, though, such a simple task is far too difficult for an imaginary being.
I find it hilarious, though, that your response here is undoubtedly the same response the prophets of Baal gave to Elijah, prior to his own demonstration. Surely the fact that my taunt mimics Elijah's hasn't escaped you...
Also amusing here is the fact that you ignored completely my characterization of your position (from which, I suppose, I can assume you agree with my characterization?), and you have not once convincingly addressed the fact that there are thousands of competing religions for which prayer is claimed to work (from within those religions, at least), and just how we unbelievers should go about identifying which prayers have been answered by god, and which haven't...
That is, as virtually everyone here has explained, there is no evidence whatsoever that prayer actually works, apart from selectively chosen anecdotes, yet there is in fact scientific evidence which shows that prayer can be a negative influence on a person's health. It is truly telling that you deny the scientific evidence because you disagree with its conclusion, yet you steadfastly cling to the anecdotal 'evidence' of your carefully chosen scenarios. Likewise telling is the fact that you deny any situations in which prayers are not answered as being examples of the failure of prayer -- you only accept 'friendly' examples.
If you were being truly honest in your assessment of the usefulness of prayer, you'd acknowledge those instances which challenge your conclusion. Instead, though, it seems you prefer to remain dishonest...
--
Stan
I wrote
ReplyDeleteNobody here believe that everything happened by "accident or coincidence." We believe that it happened according to measurable natural and statistical laws.
Da Pilgrim replied
When I mean accident I mean unguided, unplanned, it just happened...sorry for the unclarity.
You still haven't understood. Yes it's unguided (although a natural selection certainly clarifies as a 'guiding' force, but you mean unguided by intelligence), and yes it's unplanned, but it most certainly did not "just happen." The earth as it is now took over 13 billion years, and over 9 billion trillion stars (I did not make that number up), to come into existance: and even then it didn't "just happen:" it occured slowly, building on itself.
Suppose you flick a coin. If it comes down tails, you flick again. If it comes down heads, you get another coin and flick it until you get a heads. After a while you've got... say... 20 heads. The probabaility of that "just happening," by coincidence or accident, is 1 in 1048576. Yet if you use this system, I guarantee you it'll take less than 100 flips. The development of the universe happened in much the same way: each result building on top of a previous result.
Da Pilgrim asked:
Are you a determinist?
Wow, I have never actually met one. So there was nothing you could possibly have done to not have this conversation with me?
I'm entirely agnostic on determinism. Maybe my life is determined and there is no free will. But if it is, who cares? What difference does it make? The future still depends on our actions now.
Put it this way: if I could rewind my life, erase my memories, and reset my brain to it's previous state, would I still make the same decisions? I think, yes. Those decisions must have made sense to me at the time: if they didn't, I wouldn't have made them.
But it doesn't matter, because I can't rewind my life. The past is fixed. Maybe the future is too, but if it is then I'm a part of it, which means what I do has a very real effect on it.
Reading over the comments since I was last here I see my point is proven no matter how much some may protest.
ReplyDeleteI see no evidence of any desire to know the truth about the existence of God. I merely see the attempted deification of man's intellect and science.
If you are GENUINELY interested in whether God exists then you'll need to seek Him on HIS terms and not your own. You'll need to stop trying to conform Him to your expectations; to stop looking for a God of your own creation.
I can confidently state that you are not interested in the truth about God because it is man's natural state to reject God. Natural man is rebellious and always seeks his own way, refusing to submit to his Creator.
As long as any man clings to his pride, self-suffiency and the delusion of his own moral adequacy, he will never recognise God's truth.
…since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
ReplyDeleteFor although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
Romans 1:20-22
Onesimus you spelled it out quite accurately I think.
ReplyDeleteOkay, so, the standards for determining whether prayer 'works' or not only apply in favorable ways to your narrow interpretation of what it means to have been a successfully 'answered' prayer. Got it.
ReplyDeleteOh, and any notion of testing god is out of the question -- been there, done that, and god gave the T-shirt to Elijah, evidently. I take it that my barbecue must remain unlit as a result. It *was* okay, then, to test god, but only because it worked, and only that one time -- now, not so much. Understood.
You know, if you guys are going to apply a double-standard, or a special set of arbitrary rules (well, not entirely arbitrary; they seem especially well-suited to your M.O. of denying contrary evidence and affirming friendly anecdotes as 'evidence'), you should be decent enough to let us know before hand, so we can mock you directly, attempt to expose your failed 'reasoning,' or ignore the issue entirely.
...or you can play turtle, like Onesimus, and ignore any points raised by plugging your ears and shouting, "You guys don't want to hear god!" It gets especially shrill when you're taking a beating.
(Or was Onesimus' argument supposed to be, 'You don't think prayer is answered because you won't accept god on his own terms (never mind the question of his existence)'? Because if it is, that's pathetic.)
Onesimus- what you're saying is basically: "if you would rather believe the evidence of your senses and reason than in our God, that's proof that you have hardened your hearts against Him. You must approach God on His own terms- that is, abandon reason, and simply believe." You might have added this inspirational quote from Martin Luther: "Reason is the Whore of the Devil".
ReplyDeleteSorry, Onesimus, I'll take reality. And until such time as I see evidence for God in the real world, and not merely in ancient stories and wishful thinking, I'll take my reality neat.
Da Pilgrim: here's another anecdote for you, and it's true. The past week we've had half-hearted winter weather here in Vienna: temperatures just above freezing in the day, just below in the night. This is the worst kind of weather as far as I'm concerned, because it means there's a mixture of slushy snow and ice everywhere. So just after breakfast this morning I was looking out the window at another grey featureless day and I thought to myself "C'mon, snow again!" I turned away from the window to put my coffee down, and when I looked back, lo! there were snowflakes falling! Some coincidence, eh?
Now, if I were a Christian and had been praying for snow, I might well chalk this up a sign of my prayer being answered. If I were an egomaniac I might take this as proof that I could control the weather. But the point is this: it doesn't matter in the slightest to what "power" I would have attributed this: the fact is, it was simply a coincidence. The same is true of all these apparent cases of answered prayer.
cheers from snowy (hurrah!) Vienna, zilch
I see Stan has snuck in a post while I was working on mine. Proof that atheists have no morals.
ReplyDeleteIn any case- I hope you got your pizza, Stan. The fact that your barbecue remained unlit is proof that the Invisible Pink Unicorn is more powerful than Jehovah.
cheers, zilch
Onesimus wrote the following: If you are GENUINELY interested in whether God exists then you'll need to seek Him on HIS terms and not your own. You'll need to stop trying to conform Him to your expectations; to stop looking for a God of your own creation.
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely correct about this, and for this reason you need accept the reality of the one true God who gave you the ability to know Him: The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I can confidently state that you are not interested in the truth about God because it is man's natural state to reject God. Natural man is rebellious and always seeks his own way, refusing to submit to his Creator.
Zilch n Stan,
ReplyDeleteThe same is true of all these apparent cases of answered prayer.
Try doing that often. I agree that coincidences happen, what I don't agree with is that they are ALL coincidences. You have your faith that they are all coincidences and I have mine.
But to say that answered prayer is NOT evidence of God is your assumption. Evidence is anything that points to a logical conclusion. This evidence is part of my logical conclusion and that is God.
Stan, I have not read the account of Elijah for a while but if I remember correctly it was a showcase for the nation of Israel and not for one hardened person.
Context.
Whateverman,
You are absolutely correct about this, and for this reason you need accept the reality of the one true God who gave you the ability to know Him: The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Please give me decent evidence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I may consider your words.
Give me 2000+ years of records of him working in this world and personal testimonies of him interacting with man TODAY. Thus confirming the past,the present and the future about the "truth" of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
James,
The earth as it is now took over 13 billion years, and over 9 billion trillion stars (I did not make that number up), to come into existance: and even then it didn't "just happen:" it occured slowly, building on itself.
I understand that the earth is old. I'm not a YEC...unless evidence shows otherwise.
DP
Stan, I have not read the account of Elijah for a while but if I remember correctly it was a showcase for the nation of Israel and not for one hardened person.
ReplyDeleteIf God wants to then He will, but if He doesn't we may wonder why.
You think """"""He is not real.
I think """"""There must be a reason He decided not to.
Both entitled to our opinion about God's actions.
Oh and I heard another testimony at church just the last Sunday.
ReplyDeleteThey were a couple that had come from Africa and there they witnessed the blind receiving sight right in front of them as they prayed...
Oh that's right, they must be either one of three things: Liars, deceived or coincidence.
Except, DP, you only accept as "evidence" those anecdotal accounts which purport to show that your god answers prayer in the affirmative. If you cannot see why that raises doubt in our minds, you are indeed a fool.
ReplyDeleteEach and every anecdotal account you cite can be offset directly by an anecdotal account which denies your premise -- whether it affirms a different god, denies all gods, or simply speaks to coincidence. Your whole absurd position hinges on the fact that you only accept affirming anecdotes regarding your notion of god, and that you claim that successful prayer to other gods is due to demonic influence (which therefore affirms your notion of god) or coincidence (which you deny as a possibility when applied to prayers to your god). You also seem to deny explicitly coincidental anecdotes as even being coincidences (that is, by affirming your notion of god despite the appearance of coincidence), and you deny any failure of prayer as being evidence against the existence of your notion of god (although you seem perfectly content to accept failures of prayer to other gods as evidence that those gods do not exist).
Your whole system is a sham, and a poorly camouflaged one at that. If you refuse to honestly criticize your own position(s), then what is your point and/or purpose here, exactly? Are your positions so weak that they cannot stand honest scrutiny?
(Before you whine that the criticism being offered is dishonest, think very hard about just what you would be claiming in such a statement, and likewise consider heavily the way in which you assess the utility and/or effectiveness of prayer. My characterization of such assessment is perfectly accurate as your position has been presented in this thread, so if you truly wish to change that perception, you'll need to actually demonstrate your ability to honestly critique your position(s).)
Lastly -- and I believe I have brought this particular case to your attention in the past -- I must ask for your 'assessment' of the effectiveness of prayer in the case of Madeline Kara Neumann. I'm sure you'll say either that this was a case of god saying 'no,' or 'prospects hazy at this time,' or possibly you'll go so far as to say the Neumanns were praying to a false god (or a false characterization of god), but again I implore you to honestly criticize not only situations such as Kara's, but also those situations which you would otherwise accept as 'evidence' of the effectiveness of prayer.
Thus far, your entire 'assessment' has been quite lacking in the honesty department.
--
Stan
P.S. -- As to your African missionary anecdote, clearly the three possibilities you offered hold, as do two other possibilities:
1. Their prayer was answered and a miracle manifested.
2. Their prayer was coupled with tangible effort at restoring sight (e.g. surgery, medication, proper hygeine/sanitation, or even the introduction of clean water).
I would tend to think (2) is most likely, raising the question as to whether the prayer was necessary or effective in lieu of the tangible effort made.
If that is not convincing enough for you, however, I urge you to spend an evening at an Emergency Room in a major city, and pray that no one dies as a result of their medical emergency. Since you will no doubt refuse such a challenge (I suppose that constitutes 'testing' god?), I encourage you to at the very least honestly assess a hypothetical scenario of that sort -- would you say any 'failure' was 'evidence' of god's failure, or of the ineffectiveness of prayer, or would you treat cases 'success' and 'failure' differently? Would different treatment be honest?
Ok,
ReplyDeleteWhat a mash of words. Um I will reply with a simple explanation of my position.
I believe God answers prayer, sometimes yes, sometimes no...all to His will.
I do not believe God controls every snowflake but that God has set this world to run by itself but He intervenes at different points. Thus I believe in possible coincidences.
But I note there is a remarkable distinction between coincidences and miracles.
clear?
I don't know who "Madeline Kara Neumann" is.
As to your African missionary anecdote, clearly the three possibilities you offered hold, as do two other possibilities:
WOW! I have to clear my ears again. You considered their testimony as possibly true?!
If that is not convincing enough for you, however, I urge you to spend an evening at an Emergency Room in a major city, and pray that no one dies as a result of their medical emergency. Since you will no doubt refuse such a challenge (I suppose that constitutes 'testing' god?)
I know that people can pray and probably do pray for others in hospital and praying for other people is not putting God to the test but I would consider setting up a "scientific" experiment as putting God to the test.
Some people may get miraculously healed and others may not, it can be according to God's plan. Though He will listen to our desires and consider them.
However the painting you others portray/desire of God is a God that is there to answer OUR needs and be at our immediate call to give us our desires.
Not so, If God answered every person's prayer to be healed then there would be no death right?
We would live forever...but that is not God's plan, man is appointed to die and then the judgment as part of the curse.
BUT God shows more mercy to some and not as much for others. All of us have received mercy in some way but some people more than others.
"However the painting you others portray/desire of God is a God that is there to answer OUR needs and be at our immediate call to give us our desires."
ReplyDeleteNo, this is incorrect.
We're simply trying to show to you what we see as inconsistencies, fallacies and contradictions with your description of your God.
I don't know who "Madeline Kara Neumann" is.
ReplyDeleteSo Google her. Her parents believed the power of prayer was better by far than the power of Western Medicine, and as such they denied her an insulin shot -- she was a Type-I diabetic -- and instead prayed (to Jesus -- they were Christians) while she died [the horrible death of an untreated diabetic]. She was eleven years old. Do you accept her case as an example of the failure of prayer, or would you deny this anecdote by way of your obviously biased selection criteria?
--
Stan
I know a local family who did a similar but their child lived when he was taken hospital.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem going to the doctor, God uses them too.
My dad went to hospital once and I remember wondering why dad would not just get healed? But you know what...in that time at hospital dad was able to witness to a man in a hospital bed next to him.
God knows best and our little minds cannot fathom what we don't understand at the time.
I am sorry to hear about that little girl.
I just read "Neumann's parents said they didn't know she had diabetes. "
Ok, that shows a little more about the parents.
and more
"The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said the family believes in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but she said they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.
She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.
"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering.""
Taken from: http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2008/03/death-of-madeline-kara-neumann.html
It does not seem as you portrayed. It does not sound like they denied an insulin shot but were rather ignorant.
I agree that she should have been taken to hospital.
Da Pilgrim, is that *the only site* that you went to for information on this particular case?
ReplyDeleteBecause, my goodness, talk about spin.
Yes, it doesn't seem as Stan portrayed it, because that particular portrayal is, and I'm trying to be nice here, different from all of the other reports I've read about this particular situation.
Da Pilgrim, do you ever do research on sites that you might not agree with? I certainly do. It seems to me, from the little I've read on your site, that you count the hits and ignore the misses while only doing research at places that agree with your desired conclusions.
Nah, I actually didn't have much time so I found the first one I saw :) and assumed it was accurate. Sorry for the hastiness.
ReplyDeleteI found the first one I saw...
ReplyDeleteNo, you didn't, unless your version of Google (or whatever search engine you used) varies greatly from mine. I won't guess as to your motivation, but you seem to have ignored results from Fox News (first hit; also has a sub-page hit) and ABC News (third hit, not counting the sub-page hit from Fox), as well as a result from 'friendlyatheist.com,' which omission I would grant as likely being biased.
As a pretty much universal rule, a blog post is not a credible source of information. Blogs can and do contain a great deal of interesting information and opinion, and many cite appropriate sources -- indeed, the blog you selected does precisely this -- but generally speaking you should seek out the original source rather than the montage of sources available at a blog.
That being said, your characterization of that blog's position is quite twisted. The parents, whether aware or not of Kara's diabetes, should have taken her to a doctor at least a few weeks before her death, and their neglect in this case, as the blog author notes, is due to the fact that they refused medicine in lieu of prayer, and that, as it turns out, is appropriately criminal.
Her diabetes, as I understood the case when it was fresh, was quite known to her parents, but I may have inferred that from the fact that her step-father (Dale Neumann) was a former police officer. At any rate, the way she died, from Diabetic ketoacidosis, was such that a 911 call should have gone out at the very least, and well before the actual call, which was only after she stopped breathing.
She was denied an insulin shot in that she was denied access to healthcare, wherein a proper diagnosis and administration of an insulin shot would clearly have taken place. I take it from your recognition that the parents were "ignorant" that you agree with the convictions, and that you agree that relying on prayer is a recipe for disaster.
Their religion was Christianity -- a group called Unleavened Bread Ministries -- which is not an 'organized' denomination (e.g. Assemblies of God), but a Christian denomination nonetheless. They held a small bible study in their coffee shop, which presumably stood-in for actual church gatherings, as UBM offered webcasts of sermons and other teaching.
To put this case back into the topic at hand, then, was prayer effective in their case? Do you agree with the conviction, which notes that in spite of their religious beliefs, parents are compelled to seek medical care for their children, and that prayer is not an acceptable alternative to medicine?
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Stan
To put this case back into the topic at hand, then, was prayer effective in their case? Do you agree with the conviction, which notes that in spite of their religious beliefs, parents are compelled to seek medical care for their children, and that prayer is not an acceptable alternative to medicine?
ReplyDeleteI am not against doctors. I agree that sick children should be taken to doctors.
I like the story about the man praying for rain and not doing anything in preparation or anything to help his drought situation.
Action needs to be taken but God is with us in our actions, faith does not necessarily mean doing nothing.
But then there are cases such as when a person has cancer and is going to die, prayer is needed and sometimes God does miracles but I am sure the doctors would have had there chance to do what they can...and God can use doctors.
If those parents did not know how serious the situation was then I think they were alright in what they did, just like any parent that would only take their kid to the doctor unless it is needed (such as a cold or something).
But if they did know how serious it was and they thought it was wrong to take their kid to the doctor then I think they are in the wrong.
Nothing wrong with doctors.
Nothing wrong with doctors.
ReplyDeleteThat entire response had nothing to do with the questions.
1. Was prayer effective or not in that case?
2. Do you agree that parents should be compelled to seek medical care regardless of their religious convictions?
3. Do you agree that prayer is not an acceptable alternative to medicine?
--
Stan
1. Was prayer effective or not in that case?
ReplyDeleteDepends on what you mean by effective?
2. Do you agree that parents should be compelled to seek medical care regardless of their religious convictions?,
Depends what you mean by compelled? But yes I think that parents should go to the doctor.
3. Do you agree that prayer is not an acceptable alternative to medicine?
I think that prayer should be hand in hand with medicine.
A lot of my answers depend on the context.
E.G. if someone had a problem that was not life threatening but an inconvenience, I think that it is up to the person (or person in charge) whether they seek medical help or simply pray.