I am a non-believer in atheism.
I am a non-believer in the non-existence of God.
I am unconvinced of the existence of a universe without God.
I don't have enough faith to believe in the non-existence of God.
I cannot see the existence of a universe without God so I would need to have faith in order to believe it.
Actually I cannot see God as well, which then means I need faith to believe in Him also. Which one is more probable? The evidence needs to be weighed and considered regarding the existence of a Godless universe, whereas evidence needs to be weighed also for the non-existence of a Godless universe.
I need to make the best conclusion regarding this matter. But could the invisible pink unicorn be a real option as to being part of our reality? Maybe it is, maybe because I cannot see it or test it, but then I must find out the evidence pointing toward it pointing out whether it is probable or not. But it is merely a parody which is not good evidence for it at all...so I logically conclude that it is not real but there is a chance that it could be real. I am willing to act by faith that the invisible pink unicorn is not real.
However I am not willing to act by faith that God is not real. He is no parody. A book written over thousands of year and followed by millions of people seems better evidence for Him. My life has been changed by Him, he has guided me and shown me the way in which I should walk.
Another thought**** if I do not follow what He says then I am actively following against His will, and against His existence. I would not be neutral, just as when I follow after God and ignore atheistic thinking, I am not neutral. I have chosen that atheism is the least likely answer by following God.
It would take me more faith to believe He does not exist. Such an amazing awareness He has placed in me that I should be able to have knowledge and understanding of Him to some degree. How can a universe without meaning form to allow itself to understand meaning and find out that the universe has no meaning.
I remember Lewis saying that it is like "darkness". If there were no light in the universe then there would be no creatures with eyes. Would the creatures have concept of "dark" without the concept of light... would the creatures developed in our universe have concept of meaning and no meaning when the universe is without meaning?
Does a fish feel wet?
Little thoughts like this cause me to think that the best conclusion about our universe is that there is a God. But which God?...and we then move into another topic.
I simply dis-believe in the positive active belief in a universe without the existence of God.
We all have faith and for someone to suggest that they do not have faith in something is dishonest. Theists admit it...why can't atheists?
To witness an ignorant atheist suggest that he doesn't "believe" atheism and yet is an atheist, watch the following http://www.dawkinslennoxdebate.com/
You really are enamoured with that silly word play. You should probably slow down pasting it repeatedly so much or you'll be thought of as a one trick pony.
ReplyDeleteDo you think playing with words is going to convince anyone of anything? To everyone one else it's just "I'm going to believe anyway, and I don't have any better response to you".
And I have no idea what your problem is with BigFoot Media Services.
Have you ever considered that the Invisible Pink Unicorn wanted its first revelation to be a parody? That its truth could only come about once the false gods had established themselves?
ReplyDeleteIf you don't like that, what is wrong with Allah? What are you feelings on Shiva? Her books are much older than YHWH's book, that seems to be one of your standards.
Da Bomb,
ReplyDelete"I am unconvinced of the existence of a universe without God".
What would it take to convince you of the existence of a universe without God (or god(s), to be accurate)?
I know what it would take to convince me of the existence of a universe with God (god(s)) so it's only fair that you let us know what evidence you would expect in order to demonstrate the existence of a no-god universe, right?
I look forward to hearing it....
Cheers,
ExPatMatt said...
ReplyDeleteI know what it would take to convince me of the existence of a universe with God (god(s)) ...
---
All I can do is throw another of your statements back at you:
"I look forward to hearing it...."
BT,
ReplyDeleteYou really are enamoured with that silly word play. You should probably slow down pasting it repeatedly so much or you'll be thought of as a one trick pony.
Why are you concerned? it is what most atheists resort to. They generally get upset when I say I disbelieve in the non-existance of God, so I make sure we get on an even balance when we discuss.
We ALL have faith.
Do you think playing with words is going to convince anyone of anything?
And yet atheists play this word game trying to disconvince me of God.
Beams,
If you don't like that, what is wrong with Allah? What are you feelings on Shiva? Her books are much older than YHWH's book, that seems to be one of your standards.
That is a separate discussion that people who believe in God discuss. You need to be convinced of God first.
Matty,
Onesimus asked an interesting question...keen to hear your answer.
If God were not real then there would be no miracles, no apparent order or design but rather chaos, we would have no understanding of meaning.
So the way I see it, if God were not real, then I probably would not exist to believe He is not real.
God would not have changed my life and guided my foot steps and given me a conscience to decipher between right and wrong.
It comes down to opposites if why I believe in God I guess.
So can you guys answer my question which no of you have. Do you admit that you believe atheism? Like the theist believes theism?
cheers,
dan
I was just noticing that it's your fall back response and it's popped up more than one blog that I have read recently.
ReplyDeleteWhy is 'well those atheists do it too!' such a common excuse. Why are so many Christians happy to point out that they are behaving just like Atheists?
I don't recall trying to make you not believe in God recently. I personally really don't care if people believe in God or not.
"Do you admit that you believe atheism? Like the theist believes theism?"
I'm having trouble parsing the question.
Do I believe Atheism??
Is there a word missing?
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ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, along with the silly word play is this sad acronym.
ReplyDeleteAnother
Troubled
Human
Ending
In
Spiritual
Misery
Yes indeed is it pretty sad.
ReplyDeleteActually I will elaborate as it's something I have been asking before.
ReplyDeleteWhat was the point?
All you are doing is childishly insulting other people. It's not an attempt to convert or explain anything. And you have to be aware of that when you post it.
It's something I wonder about people who pretend to preach to the unconverted, when really all they are doing is selling to converted, while patting themselves on the back about what a good job of 'reaching to the lost'. Eric Hovind is an example of this. As would be Ray Comfort.
BathTub said...
ReplyDeleteWhat was the point?
----
And there is a "point" behind an atheist's obsession with contributing to Christian blogs to argue about a "non-existent" God?
Are you being forced here to do that? Or are you being forced here to be "childishly insulted"?
Whether or not your last paragraph applies to Dan is irrelevant. The point is that you come here and subject yourself to whatever approach and purpose that Dan decides to follow on his own blog.
Or maybe you are being drawn here by the influence of that "non-existent" God that so many atheists are obsessed with.
---
What may be known about God is plain, because God has made it plain...so that men are without excuse.
great job , Da Bomb.
ReplyDeleteAll the wordplay and redefining words in the world doesn't give theses atheists a credible argument for their position.
It's a pet peeve of mine when atheists try to redefine their position (in opposition , to all the historical and philosophical usage of the word through the centuries) so that it isn't position at all .
Onesimus, I'm here because I quite enjoy discussions.
ReplyDeleteI already mentioned I don't care if you believe in god or not. I mainly care when other people represent me.
BathTub,
ReplyDeleteWhat was the point?
IN case you have no got the point and reason for this post I will lay it out real clear.
1) I would like to help bring people to know our wonderful Maker by breaking down strongholds that set themselves up against God (2Corinthians 10:4-5).
2) I want to convince everyone that they believe in something.
2) When atheists and theists talk they should be discussing "the best option", just as we take most, if not all things in this world by faith.
3) I notice that often when atheists are challenged they fall back on "I just disbelieve"
4) Of course it is easy to turn a blind eye to God if you cannot see Him, and because of this atheists tend to fall back on a proposed "neutral position" which then disengages them from any responsibility in the discussion to fulfill the burden of proof for their view.
5) I also enjoy discussion and "playing" with words and philosophy :)
cheers,
Dan
The question about what 'the point' was in respond to our anonymous friend posting that ridiculous blather.
ReplyDeleteIt's easy enough to make an insulting anagram. Do you think that would be helpful?
Lets see, Christian.
Well the first letter is C, plenty to play with there isn't there.
But no I won't because while I am childish, I am not THAT childish.
MrFreeThinker,
ReplyDeleteThankyou, at least one person understands the meaning of my post.
Back in the day, in the Bible, atheism apparently originally meant something simple like "without out God". So Christians were called atheists by the Romans and Christians called the Romans atheists. LOL
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ReplyDeleteOh ok BT,
ReplyDeleteI have just seen your response to "Anonymous".
I agree you, I don't know who it was but I am sure lots of mockery can be made with "CHRISTIAN"...it is a longer word :)
I can't even tell if they are Christian or atheist actually...because they started off talking about silly word play which I thought they were accusing me of LOL.
But, I do agree in the fact that atheism is in spiritual misery and I want atheists to know our Maker!
NEway howz it going in Wellington BT?
ReplyDeleteWe are having great weather up here in the North! Awesome crispy days.
Yeah alright, still a little chilly at nights but should be quite pleasant for summer.
ReplyDeleteHey Da Bomb! You say:
ReplyDeleteHow can a universe without meaning form to allow itself to understand meaning and find out that the universe has no meaning.
This is a point which often comes up in discussions of theism and atheism. To understand this it might help to pose an analogous question:
How can a universe without life form to allow itself to evolve life and find out that the universe has no life.
My answer, for life as well as meaning, is that both are evolved entities that now exist in certain places in the Universe, but the Universe as a whole is not alive or meaningful.
Da Bomb,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that I need to answer the question, because I don't think you answered mine.
I asked you what evidence would convince you that the universe we live in is a no-god universe (a position you claim to be 'unconvinced' of).
You said;
"If God were not real then there would be no miracles, no apparent order or design but rather chaos, we would have no understanding of meaning.
So the way I see it, if God were not real, then I probably would not exist to believe He is not real.
God would not have changed my life and guided my foot steps and given me a conscience to decipher between right and wrong".
See? You didn't give me examples that would possibly change you from unconvinced to convinced, you just reasserted all the reasons why you do believe.
The only instance that you would consider as evidence is your non-existence, which is absurd.
So, you are either unable or unwilling to name evidence that would convince you of the existence of this universe as a no-god universe. This strikes me as you saying that you couldn't ever be convinced of a no-god universe. If that's the case then you don't 'disbelieve a no-god universe' you actively believe a +god universe.
Clariify this and I'll answer the question too, ok?
You go on...
"So can you guys answer my question which no of you have. Do you admit that you believe atheism? Like the theist believes theism?".
I don't think it's as simple as that. You're essentially trying to get people to describe themselves as strong atheists when they self-identify as weak atheists.
[for reference; your 'I disbelieve in the non-existence of god' is a weak theist position. Are you a weak theist?]
I am a weak atheist for gods in general. I am unconvinced by claims - all claims - of god(s) but I don't actively believe these gods don't exist because there are some I haven't heard of, there are some that haven't revealed themselves, there are some that can't be known - there is no way I can actively 'believe' that they don't exist because I don't have enough information to do so: weak atheism.
I am a strong atheist with regards to the interpretation of God of fundamentalist Christianity, however. I know enough about Him to confidently say that I believe He doesn't exist.
I'm still a weak atheist in regard to the Christian god in general but the fundamentalist interpretation of that God? Strong atheist.
Happy?
Cool.
Da Bomb and MFT,
ReplyDeleteAnd only 50 to 60 years ago, gay just meant happy. We should totally go by historicity of words because meanings never change by common use.
Da Bomb,
That is a separate discussion that people who believe in God discuss. You need to be convinced of God first.
Way to not answer. I can grant you the premise that a God exists. That has nothing to do with why I believe there is no god or gods. This was a question as to your belief and non-belief.
You reject the Invisible Pink Unicorn (IPU) as it is parody, I can grant you that. That would be a discussion like you just claimed only people who believe in a god can have, you refute yourself.
Matt,
ReplyDelete"See? You didn't give me examples that would possibly change you from unconvinced to convinced, you just reasserted all the reasons why you do believe."
What?
If asked you what would convince you that computer screens were not real and you said "From the way I know it, they are, but if they weren't, I would not be typing to you".
So therefore, there is no way that I can convince you of the non-existence of computer screens.
"This strikes me as you saying that you couldn't ever be convinced of a no-god universe. If that's the case then you don't 'disbelieve a no-god universe' you actively believe a +god universe."
Exactly, I actively believe in God and actively do not believe atheism...that is the point.
Yes we can scientifically test a computer screen but the very nature that I believe in God is the very nature of ourselves; that is, the very nature of the existence of the computer screen is the nature of my belief that it is. If that makes sense.
I said: "If God were not real then there would be no miracles, no apparent order or design but rather chaos, we would have no understanding of meaning.
So the way I see it, if God were not real, then I probably would not exist to believe He is not real.
God would not have changed my life and guided my foot steps and given me a conscience to decipher between right and wrong".
Or what about love? which is more of an abstract concept like God.
My fiancee loves me and I love her. "IF" I were to suggest to you what would possibly dis-convince me of her love, I would say (in relation to my reasons for belief in God): Her gifts and acts (miracles), the design of a relationship...that is quality time (order and meaning)etc.
If her love for me were not real then the opposite would be what would convince me of her dis-love for me. Same with any relationship.
Same with God.
I am a strong atheist with regards to the interpretation of God of fundamentalist Christianity
There are many claiming "fundamentalist" christians around, you may need to clarify that.
cheers,
Dan
P.S. I'll be away for the weekends for now.
zilch,
ReplyDeleteMy answer, for life as well as meaning, is that both are evolved entities that now exist in certain places in the Universe, but the Universe as a whole is not alive or meaningful.
So meaningless turned into the meaning full?
Beams,
ReplyDeleteAnd only 50 to 60 years ago, gay just meant happy.
Yeah it is funny how language changes, and fun to study.
"You reject the Invisible Pink Unicorn (IPU) as it is parody, I can grant you that. That would be a discussion like you just claimed only people who believe in a god can have, you refute yourself."
hmmm, I see your point.
However, Elohim and Allah has more evidence for them than any invisible pink unicorn. Not that I believe in Allah.
I am trying to point out that once you believe in theism or deism...then it is more appropriate to maybe discuss which one? I may need to convince you that cars exist but before we do that it may be pointless to talk about which car is fastest, when you don't even believe they exist!
Though the slowness of one car may have put you off the existence of that car and all others. In that case it may be appropriate to talk to you about the fastest car in my view to convince you they do exist.
LOL
But then again I am wanting to convince you of the Christian God alone, so that will come out in my conversations.
Talking about which God is not the point of the post and I said so in it.
cheers,
Dan
So meaningless turned into the meaning full?
ReplyDeleteYup. Just as the Universe was once lifeless, but then life evolved, it was also meaningless (there's no meaning without life), but when life evolved, meanings evolved too.
LOL,
ReplyDeleteI'll restate me question and let me know it makes sense.
So meaninglessness meaninglessly turned into meaningful life...without a Grand designer?
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ReplyDeleteShana Tova Everyone,
ReplyDeleteHope everyone has a good Rosh Hashanah.
Shalom,
No Doubt
I spent mine in Arizona.
ReplyDeleteBathtub,
ReplyDelete"All you are doing is childishly insulting other people."
I assume that you are talking about the acronym from annonymous.I actually agree with you if the intent was to insult atheists. Why can't people discuss without resorting such antics.
With that said, you have to admit that there are people like that on both sides of the issue, including some responding to this blog.
Let's keep it cordial.
No Doubt
Beam Stalk,
ReplyDelete"That has nothing to do with why I believe there is no god or gods."
Seriously.....Why don't you believe in G-d?
No Doubt
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ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDelete"If her love for me were not real then the opposite would be what would convince me of her dis-love for me. Same with any relationship.
Same with God."
It is the ever growing ralationship we have with G-d that solidifies our belief in him. It starts out with faith in the word of G-d and grows into utmost assurance because of G-d daily revealing himself to us.
That daily interaction is the only proof that would satisfy most non-believers. I wish there was some way to reveal that to non-believers. However, I fear that the one thing required by G-d in order to reveal himself is one thing that they refuse to do..... Take that first step of faith.
Shana Tova,
Keith
Welcome back, ND.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I fear that the one thing required by G-d in order to reveal himself is one thing that they refuse to do..... Take that first step of faith.
This doesn't fly. You must know that a very many current non-Christians were once practicing Christians, virtually all of whom actively sought the god you promote by taking not one, but a very many successive steps of faith. In essence, then, this rather unflattering argument you've lofted is more damaging than good -- either your god selectively reveals himself, or there is no such god, and those who claim to have had a revelation are somehow deluded.
In either case, your fear is unfounded -- that first step of faith is quite irrelevant.
--
Stan
Quite agree Keith!
ReplyDeleteLOL.
Your Hebrew is getting a little ahead of my comprehension now :)
I just want to clarify a little word in these paragraphs that I got a little muddled in:
My fiancee loves me and I love her. "IF" I were to suggest to you what would possibly dis-convince me of her love, I would say (in relation to my reasons for belief in God): Her [lack of thoughtful] gifts and acts (miracles), [lack of] the design of a relationship...that is quality time (order and meaning)etc.
I have added extra in these [***] brackets, to give a little more clarity to what I was saying.
and here:
If her love for me were [] real then the opposite would be what would convince me of her dis-love for me. Same with any relationship.
Same with God.
"not" was in the brackets, which I then deleted.
I am sure you guys know what I am trying to say...I'm getting confused with my own sentences DOH! :0) LOL
I'll restate me question and let me know it makes sense.
ReplyDeleteSo meaninglessness meaninglessly turned into meaningful life...without a Grand designer?
You got it. Life, and meaning, are both kinds of order. While the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which seems to work, declares that entropy tends to increase globally in a closed system, meaning that the system as a whole tends to become less orderly with time, it allows entropy to decrease locally, which basically means allowing order to increase, in open systems; that is, in systems that receive energy and/or order from the outside.
Life is an example of such an open system. We living things get our order from our environment, extracting energy from what we imbibe, thereby decreasing the order around us. But we don't have to get that complex for examples of order increasing locally without a Designer: sand dunes, for instance, represent more order than just a bunch of sand: they are an open system that pays for its order by taking energy from the wind.
And life evolved by the slow accumulation of order in particular open systems, and meanings evolved in living things because of their utility in aiding their holders to survive. Ultimately, almost all the energy that powers the multitudinous examples of order on the Earth comes from the Sun, of course.
And if you think that order requires a designer, then who designed God? Where did God's order come from? Yes, I've heard all the usual answers, (God is the "Uncaused Cause", or doesn't require an explanation because He didn't "begin to exist", etc.) But these "answers" all have at least two problems: one, it's simply possible to substitute "the Universe" for "God" and get just as good an answer in terms of explanatory power; and two, our earthly experience with designers is that such complex beings are always the results of evolution: they don't just pop up out of nothing.
Of course, you can turn the coin and ask me: "where did the Universe come from, if not from God?" A good question, and one I cannot answer. But your answer, "God", does no more work than my answer, and it is a great deal more complex, and has no evidence going for it. Thus, until such time as I see reason to believe otherwise, I'll stick with the much simpler explanation that explains my observations, and remain an atheist.
cheers from sunny Vienna, zilch
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ReplyDeleteHey Stan,
ReplyDeleteThanks. Your part of the world is so beautiful. Would you believe we went to 16 National Parks throughout Colorado, Utah, California and Arizona in 16 days. Talking about making your head spin. But it was fun.
"You must know that a very many current non-Christians were once practicing Christians, virtually all of whom actively sought the god you promote by taking not one, but a very many successive steps of faith."
Please...I don't mean this as insulting to those who catorgorize themselves as previously "practicing christians". However, just the label of practicing lends one to think that they were trying to do all the work in the relationship. That shows me that even though their heart is in the right place, there wasn't any place in their heart for G-d.
The old adage of "You get what you put into it" does not apply. It all comes down to allowing yourself to be transformed, which is all about G-d.
I do fear that a lot of previously practicing christians and even todays christians is guilty of forgetting their first love and attempting to "busy" or work themselves into the Kingdom. By "busy", I mean those "very many successive steps of faith". It not about taking many steps of faith. It's about taking the first step and enjoying the ride from that point on. Those successive steps aren't suppose to be out of faith, but out of servitude because G-d has revealed himself as proof of his existence.
There is a difference between the Remnant of G-d and christians, especially within the "Body of Christ" today.
Once again, don't take this as an insult, but more of a plea to those truly desire to know if G-d exists. I honestly cannot conceive going to the throne of G-d then turning your back on it.
Shalom my friend,
Keith
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry.
Shana Tova means "A good year to you".
Sometimes I forget to translate. I'll try not to let it happen again. :-)
As for your previous comments. I was agreeing with you and adding my two cents worth. I'm sorry you guys don't have anything less than 10ct piece. ;-)
Shalom,
Keith
ND,
ReplyDelete16 parks in 16 days? Impressive. You can have this state, though... It's got wonderful places, I'll grant you, but I'd much prefer to go home to Western Washington, where there are trees, water, and rain. This place is a high altitude desert.
However, just the label of practicing lends one to think that they were trying to do all the work in the relationship.
No more so than "practicing medicine," "practicing law," or any other application of 'practice' which doesn't involve exclusive self-reliance. I understand that this very thread was predicated upon childish wordplay, but I should hope you'd see through that, especially in this context. Even so, however, you must apparently admit that your fear, at the least, is unfounded:
However, I fear that the one thing required by G-d in order to reveal himself is one thing that they refuse to do..... Take that first step of faith.
If taking that first step of faith is insufficient, as you seem to imply upon reflection, then your fear is unfounded. Evidently, god requires either more, or something different.
It all comes down to allowing yourself to be transformed, which is all about G-d.
Which means that taking "that first step of faith" is irrelevant -- if the transformation comes from god, it matters not what I do, yes? This raises an easy counter-example to what you're probably thinking already: that we have to honestly believe, or have our hearts in the right place, or something along those lines, or god won't reveal himself to us.
Rather than go there, however, I'll afford you the opportunity to clarify if that sort of thought actually bears out -- I would rather not waste time beating up a misrepresentation.
Suffice it to say, then, that the required action you assert has been attempted by a great many people, yet they are not visited with the revelation you claim should come.
--
Stan
Stan,
ReplyDeleteWashington? That's funny because I asked my wife the other day, "Where do you want to go next year?" She said, "The Northwest." Suprising, in my travels, I've only been to Spokane and that was in the winter.
"No more so than "practicing medicine," "practicing law," or any other application of 'practice' which doesn't involve exclusive self-reliance."
I would think that just practicing medicine, law or anything else doesn't always make you a good doctor, lawyer or whatever. Doesn't it take dedication to the trade?
I believe the same can be said about G-d. Believing that medicine is the way to go and making the commitment to go to medical school is like taking that first step of faith.
Once that commitment is established, you begin your journey to school. G-d revealing himself to a true believer comes along the same kind of journey. It comes in varying degrees depending on the dedication. I'm sure you experienced the same thing while going through school. Your professors usually notice those who are really dedicated to the trade and help them with an evergrowing enthusiasm. The same is with G-d.
"If taking that first step of faith is insufficient, as you seem to imply upon reflection, then your fear is unfounded."
Sorry, I must not have made my position clear. One step of true faith is all that's needed...but what is that true faith? There's a difference between a "believing" faith and a "committed" faith.
The following is going to sound like I'm spritually superior. Please believe me it is not.
However, I believe that those who were "practicing christians" you spoke of, that fell away, did not have a committed first step of faith. The difference between the two is the same as those who wade in the water and those who swim. Both say that they went swimming. But in reality, they didn't.
"Evidently, god requires either more, or something different."
I don't believe so. G-d wants that first step of faith to be a full commitment. A fully committed love is what he desires. A fully committed love results in a desire to follow and get to know him, not requirements. Requirements come from man not G-d. I believe that the problem with many christians who turn away after years of attending church.
response to Stan continued
ReplyDelete"Which means that taking "that first step of faith" is irrelevant -- if the transformation comes from god, it matters not what I do, yes?"
Yes sir. As long as you are committed to G-d. Another problem with many denominations today is the teaching of a "works based" faith. That is faith is work. That's messed up. It is your work that shows you have faith.
"This raises an easy counter-example to what you're probably thinking already: that we have to honestly believe, or have our hearts in the right place, or something along those lines, or god won't reveal himself to us."
Honestly believing, having our hearts in the right place, or something along those lines are varying degrees of work not faith. Again, faith is not work. We are told that faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Notice there are no varying degrees of work to gage yourself and others. G-d desires the same thing that he gives us, a "no holds barred" commitment, with no rules or restrictions. He allows us to do anything that is beneficial to us. I know....that doesn't sound like the christianity you've heard of because it is scripturally based. Most of the church today is apostate and is teaching tradition to the body rather than is truly in the bible. I ask you not to judge G-d based on what you have learned from most churches and christians but what he has actually written.
"Suffice it to say, then, that the required action you assert has been attempted by a great many people, yet they are not visited with the revelation you claim should come."
No action required only a state of true faith. The action will come as a result of that true faith. So comes the Revelation of G-d. Please believe me. There is nothing like that first time you kneel in true faith and you are spiritually transported to the throne-room of G-d.
Shalom,
Keith
However, Elohim and Allah has more evidence for them than any invisible pink unicorn.
ReplyDeleteThey do? Please present the evidence.
The have serious books about them, written by serious people for starters....the invisable pink unicorn is parody.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe in Allah as God. I do know that when people call on the Name of Elohim (Yaweh), they are saved and healed (literally). Testimonies...real testimonies.
Ever read books like the cross and the switch blade?
I have laid out multiple evidences for the God of the Bible throughout my blog and many other's blogs have it laid out also.
What is the evidence for a universe without the existence of God?
There are serious books about unicorns and movies. There are eye witness testimonies to fairies, even a picture recently.
ReplyDeleteThere are serious books written by serious people about UFOs and blurry pictures. Testimonies...real testimonies. Ever read books like "Fire from the Sky" or "Communion"?
Eye witness testimony means nothing without corroborating evidence. There are men being freed in Texas that were accused of rape by eye witness testimony, including victim testimony. Why are they being freed? DNA evidence proves they didn't do it. Now were the eye witnesses lying? Probably not, I would guess that most were mistaken or did not see everything as clearly as they thought and the mind filled in the blanks.
For instance "The Amityville Horror" book was supposed written on eye witness accounts. Yet, most of the book and movies are never confirmed and some contradictory evidence has surfaced. Still the family insists that is exactly what happened.
Now take Lourdes France. People claim the water from the springs there have healed them of all kinds of ailments, usually involving pain. Now why is pain the most common cure? Pain is entirely subjective and very susceptible to placebo effect.
Cancer goes into remission at the same rate in people prayed for as people who don't believe or are not prayed for. Prayer was tested for heart patients and the people who knew they were being prayed for ended up having more complications than any other group. The people who didn't know they were being prayed for did the same as the control group (people that were not being prayed for).
You are going to have provide something that can be substantiated, Daniel.
Actually, Elohim is the Hebrew word for gods but can refer to YHWH at times (more accurate would be heavenly hosts or heavenly court). The only name ever given for your God was the tetragram or bastardized into English as Jehovah (JHWH) or Yahweh (YHWH).
Da Bomb,
ReplyDeleteI guess I'll tell you what evidence would convince me of a +God universe (your God, specifically).
If Dani'El's prophecy regarding the destruction of San Fransisco and LA on the 27th September comes to pass then I will bend my knee and accept that I am a sinner who needs a saviour.
I would consider that as evidence so compelling that I couldn't possibly deny it and keep my integrity. Besides, I promised him that I would.
Other evidence would include personal revelation from God (I'd also accept an angel, as long as it didn't look like Jon Travolta).
The Rapture. If the Rapture happened then I would instantly convert. No question.
Finally, if a YEC were able to accurately describe the theory of evolution - with a decent cross-section of the evidence that supports it - and then were to refute it using sound reasoning and scientific evidence; then I'd convert too.
Not because the ToE had been disproved, that makes no difference. Merely because a YEC was able to display a level of honesty and intellectual rigour with regards to evolution that, so far, has been so lacking that it would be miraculous at this point to actually see it. ;)
Note that I didn't just think of things that I take for granted in my no-god universe experience and then say I'd expect to see the opposite [example: "In the no-god universe we see universal constants so in a +god universe I'd expect them to change around randomly; they don't so there's no God"] this is pretty much what you did.
I presented things that could conceivably occur and would convince me that the way I currently view the world is wrong. You have failed to provide such instances.
The fact that I can do this is why my atheism is correctly described as 'lacking belief' and not 'believing in no-god' whereas your theism is correctly described as 'believing in God' and not 'disbelieving in no-God'.
Get it?
Cool.
What is the evidence for a universe without the existence of God?
ReplyDeleteShifting the burden of proof, which has already been pointed out to you. If god exists then you should have no problem proving him.
Here is an example:
A person walks up to you and says, "I have a baseball."
You respond, "Do you have any evidence for this?"
"Here it is in my hand."
A different person walks up to you and says, "I have a baseball."
"Do you have any evidence for this?"
"YOU CAN'T PROVE I DON'T HAVE A BASEBALL!"
So I ask you what kind of evidence would you accept as proving a universe without a God?
As with ExPatMatt, I promised Dani'El the same. If his prediction comes to pass then I will convert to his form of Christianity. Of course Dani'El offered no reciprocating promise for his prediction not coming to pass.