tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post7332844845967347330..comments2023-10-24T03:48:03.925-07:00Comments on Pilgrimage: My "would be" old earth viewsDaniel (Da Pilgrim)http://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-56419019631084794202009-11-04T22:29:07.800-08:002009-11-04T22:29:07.800-08:00How do you determine what is correct or not?
Both...<i>How do you determine what is correct or not?</i><br /><br />Both must be reconciled I believe. Either we have interpreted science wrong, or we have interpreted the Bible wrong.<br /><br /><i>What, in the Bible, specifically suggests an old earth, do you think?</i><br /><br />Not specifically, the Bible gives no date. (except for some passages saying that the hills are ancient or something like that, though I can't remember where...maybe in Job?)<br /><br />As I hoped to bring out in my post that an old earth reading is quite logical and probable. That is all I meant, that it can easily suggest an old earth reading.<br /><br />cheers,<br /><br />DBDaniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-1914899300490052602009-11-02T14:07:18.581-08:002009-11-02T14:07:18.581-08:00Da Bomb,
"Yes it is based on science and wha...Da Bomb,<br /><br /><i>"Yes it is based on science and what God has told us through it...provided it is correct"</i>.<br /><br />How do you determine what is correct or not?<br /><br /><i>"Also, Biblically it easily suggests an old earth reading. I am still learning and studying"</i>.<br /><br />What, in the Bible, specifically suggests an old earth, do you think?<br /><br />Learning + Studying = good!<br /><br />Cheers,ExPatMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08666078524214384329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-40523098756676339302009-10-30T14:42:59.220-07:002009-10-30T14:42:59.220-07:00Hey Matt,
Is it based on the science? Or is there...Hey Matt,<br /><br /><i>Is it based on the science? Or is there something in Scripture that indicates an old, rather than a young, earth?</i><br /><br />Yes it is based on science and what God has told us through it...provided it is correct.<br />I particularly like this talk: http://www.reasons.org/age-earth/radiometric-dating-techniques/deep-core-tests-age-earth<br /><br />Also, Biblically it easily suggests an old earth reading. I am still learning and studying.<br /><br />cheers,<br /><br />DanDaniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-32757528069042569032009-10-26T14:39:02.032-07:002009-10-26T14:39:02.032-07:00Da Bomb,
I just noticed something. You never actu...Da Bomb,<br /><br />I just noticed something. You never actually say why you think the earth might be old.<br /><br />You go to a lot of trouble to say how the text can be congruent with an old earth, but you don't let us know why you are even considering that possibility in the first place.<br /><br />Is it based on the science? Or is there something in Scripture that indicates an old, rather than a young, earth?<br /><br />Cheers,ExPatMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08666078524214384329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-4652200353965026652009-10-20T23:19:04.721-07:002009-10-20T23:19:04.721-07:00Onesimus,
Yeah, Pawson really comes out with som...Onesimus,<br /><br /><br />Yeah, Pawson really comes out with some interesting ideas and ways of putting things.Daniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-5694946620477953692009-10-20T23:14:36.975-07:002009-10-20T23:14:36.975-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Daniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-21977399491631577892009-10-20T17:27:26.695-07:002009-10-20T17:27:26.695-07:00Da Bomb said:
Onesimus,
Check out David Pawson'...Da Bomb said:<br />Onesimus,<br />Check out David Pawson's teaching on Genesis and age of the earth if you can... very interesting. (I know you like him)<br /><br />----- <br /><br />I've heard his teaching on the beginning of Genesis, but it was quite a while ago. I'll Have to have another listen.<br /><br />I particularly like Pawson's take on the length of the days of creation - that the seventh day lasted until Jesus' resurrection when the beginning of the new creation marked the first day of a second week of creation. And that this time God starts with creating new man and concludes with the creation of a new heaven and earth.<br /><br />Int he first creation God made an environment suitable for man. In the new creation He creates man to be suitable for a holy and righteous environment.Onesimushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413061573637313957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-67190998354989355772009-10-20T07:14:56.257-07:002009-10-20T07:14:56.257-07:00What about all the "faiths". Christianit...<i>What about all the "faiths". Christianity, Atheism, Hinduism, Islam...isms...<br />All faiths have a world view. We must pick the best one.<br />You ask "which Christian belief should we follow", but I ask the same of you...how can we be sure that your atheism is the correct belief?</i><br /><br />As I said, Daniel, I have a day job, and I can't afford to look at every hairbrained belief someone has entertained sometime. Atheism is not a belief but rather a <i>lack of belief</i> in gods, the default position we all come into the world with. And although I'm willing to admit that I haven't fully investigated Voodoo or Cargo Cults, I haven't seen any signs from any of the religions I've encountered so far that they have any evidence going for them, so I'll stick with my parsimonious atheism for the moment.<br /><br />Thus I'll ask, along with Stan: how are we to know which belief system, if any, is correct? Obviously we can't examine them all deeply, because life is short and bills are long.<br /><br />As far as beinzilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-50710260562734092662009-10-19T19:06:38.478-07:002009-10-19T19:06:38.478-07:00But what you believe about God influeneces [sic] t...<i>But what you believe about God influeneces </i>[sic]<i> the way you look at science.</i><br /><br />No matter what you believe about god, the inclined plane behaves the way it does. No matter what you think about god, light refraction behaves per Snell's law. No matter what god you worship, science shows that the age of the universe is more than 10,000 years, that there was no global flood, that the ToE works. It's only when we refuse to look through Galileo's telescope that we fail to see the Jovian moons now named after him, or the phases of Venus that proved the sun was our solar system's center. Like it or not, science works independently of the religious views of its practitioners.<br /><br />I suppose, then, that you're right in a sense -- what a person believes about god <i>does</i> influence the way he looks at science. Young-earth creationists, for example, look at science with suspicion and fear. If you hold to any particular dogmatic view, then science can and will be a problem.<br /><br />--<br />StanStan, the Half-Truth Tellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260266801557543879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-71027489978702891932009-10-19T17:11:03.248-07:002009-10-19T17:11:03.248-07:00Zilch,
Picky, picky, Matt. If we want to hook thi...Zilch,<br /><br /><i>Picky, picky, Matt. If we want to hook this soul for the Devil, we must proceed slowly.</i><br /><br />LOL, Dogmatism?<br /><br /><i>For several reasons. One- whose prophecies should the government go by- the Christian, the Hindu, or the Scientologist, etc? Since there is an equal lack of evidence that any of these are true, then how is the government to decide? Perhaps by reading chicken entrails?</i><br /><br />What about all the "faiths". Christianity, Atheism, Hinduism, Islam...isms...<br />All faiths have a world view. We must pick the best one.<br />You ask "which Christian belief should we follow", but I ask the same of you...how can we be sure that your atheism is the correct belief?<br /><br />I said: "Every idea man has regarding science is influenced by his worldview, God or no God."<br /><br /><i>While this is true, it's not science. True scientists, whether they be atheists such as Richard Dawkins or believers such as Francis Collins, go by the evidence, and not by what they believe about God.</i><br /><br />But what you believe about God influeneces the way you look at science.Daniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-16363733788066196572009-10-19T12:26:21.991-07:002009-10-19T12:26:21.991-07:00Stan,
Thanks for the heads up. Since Dr. Collins ...Stan,<br />Thanks for the heads up. Since Dr. Collins was appointed to the NIH (National institute of health) by Obama, he may have let the site slide.<br /><br />Although, there are some good articles there showing how Christians can esily justify their scientific views.Froggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12972110380349786742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-45198451637152062152009-10-19T10:43:36.523-07:002009-10-19T10:43:36.523-07:00Stan: by "come to fruition" I of course ...Stan: by "come to fruition" I of course meant "come true in a scientifically significant way". I thought you got the memo.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-76894936893548920822009-10-19T09:30:18.602-07:002009-10-19T09:30:18.602-07:00No Doubt,
I'm sorry, I don't quite unders...No Doubt,<br /><br />I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here;<br /><br /><i>"Yes. This is the view you get when you read the full biblical account and take in the full counsel of G-d. Unfortunately, tradition christian thought is biased and what you guys judge us on"</i>.<br /><br />I mean, the last sentence doesn't make any grammatical sense and your 'yes' wasn't clearly aimed at any one specific thing I said. Could you possibly clarify your position on this?<br /><br />Cheers,ExPatMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08666078524214384329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-90485789247645581582009-10-19T08:50:54.073-07:002009-10-19T08:50:54.073-07:00Froggie,
Biologos is an interesting site, but it ...Froggie,<br /><br />Biologos is an interesting site, but it isn't yet complete; I posted a comment or two when it was first activated, and they've yet to publish a single one (and I doubt very much that I'm the only one to submit a comment). Until they post comments (and hopefully address them), it's a billboard.<br /><br />--<br />Stan<br /><br /><br />P.S. -- the word verification for my last post was, I kid you not, "crazi." Fitting.Stan, the Half-Truth Tellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260266801557543879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-63447640416322569692009-10-19T08:47:10.428-07:002009-10-19T08:47:10.428-07:00One just needs to study all of them without any bi...<i>One just needs to study all of them without any bias...</i><br /><br />Damn. Zilch beat me to it. Clearly we cannot study every proposed 'prophecy,' so there must be some more specific discriminating criteria.<br /><br /><i>Looking at the pre-trib, mid-trib, etc. from multi-level discernment, you get the complete picture.</i><br /><br />Huh? What is "multi-level discernment"? From my perspective, the differences in denomination (whether compatible or indifferent to one another, as tribulation theologies generally are, or incompatible and mutually exclusive, as various other theologies are) illustrate that determining the correct religion is tantamount to impossible -- one would have to assume a particular denomination and/or set of doctrines, practice the religion accordingly, and see what results. Shall we proceed alphabetically, or, again, is there some more specific discriminating criteria?<br /><br /><i>Both should </i>[sic]<i> sides should be taught and the receiver of the message should bare it out according to the weight of the evidence.</i><br /><br />"Both sides"? Are there only two sides? Should <i>every</i> side be taught? Should I direct you to <a href="http://controversy.wearscience.com/" rel="nofollow">this site</a> to illustrate your naïve error? Science rejects those "sides" which are fruitless, or have been shown to be incorrect, and instead focuses on the "sides" which show promise via a combination of prediction and explanation. Until you present a "side" which succeeds in this regard -- <i>better</i> than the present model -- I expect your "side" is appropriately ignored. Even theoretical science is addled by this requirement -- try getting a grant to research a theory/hypothesis which offers no hope for prediction or explanation.<br /><br /><i>[All prophecies about which Zilch has learned] have one thing in common: none of them have come to fruition.</i><br /><br />This is untrue, Z. ND will argue that many of the bible's prophecies came to fruition, but his argument lacks teeth -- a 'prophecy' which comes to fruition is meaningless <i>unless</i> its realization is far more unlikely than its failure, and a 'prophecy' which provides no explicit terminus is likewise meaningless, as those who accept it can constantly move the goalposts, citing their own error rather than admitting error in the 'prophecy.'<br /><br />Surely, Z, you've encountered 'prophecy' which predicts the mundane, and surely you've encountered 'prophecy' which has been realized by way of calculated effort. When a 'prophet' 'prophesies' something which is possible to occur, and believers willfully enact the 'prophecy,' is that not a trivial example of fulfilled 'prophecy'? ND will struggle to deny this, but it is exactly this scenario which surrounds the 'fulfilled' biblical 'prophecies.'<br /><br />Better put, then, only the meaningless 'prophecies' have "come to fruition," and those which have not are meaningless because they provide no explicit terminus. Hence, all 'prophecies' thus far offered are either meaningless, outright failures (see El Dani, Jehovah's Witnesses, <i>et al</i>), or pending [failure].<br /><br />--<br />StanStan, the Half-Truth Tellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260266801557543879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-71092061840740108582009-10-19T08:43:35.291-07:002009-10-19T08:43:35.291-07:00Hi Dan,
Francis Collins, is a physician-geneticis...Hi Dan,<br /><br />Francis Collins, is a physician-geneticist, noted for his landmark discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the Human Genome Project (HGP) and is described as "one of the most accomplished scientists of our time".<br /><br />He is a devout Christian.<br /><br />I would hope along with your investigations that you would take a look at the site he founded, The Biologos Foundation.<br /><br />He and other writers there articulate very well and have addressed many of the questions you have. It's very interesting stuff.<br /><br /><br /><br />http://biologos.org/Froggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12972110380349786742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-2604460244682792522009-10-19T08:38:18.375-07:002009-10-19T08:38:18.375-07:00Oh, and P.S. I said:
Picky, picky, Matt. If we w...Oh, and P.S. I said:<br /><br /><b>Picky, picky, Matt. If we want to hook this soul for the Devil, we must proceed slowly.</b><br /><br />No Doubt replied:<br /><br /><i>Be careful! On the outside chance that G-d truly exists, you should take care of what you say. :-)</i><br /><br />Not to worry. Since neither God nor the Devil is willing to put their money where their mouth is, I'll just stick with being good- it's more fun than being bad.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-29516518207775372612009-10-18T11:31:15.258-07:002009-10-18T11:31:15.258-07:00I said:
whose prophecies should the government go...I said:<br /><br /><b>whose prophecies should the government go by- the Christian, the Hindu, or the Scientologist, etc? Since there is an equal lack of evidence that any of these are true, then how is the government to decide? Perhaps by reading chicken entrails?</b><br /><br />No Doubt replied:<br /><br /><i>That's an easy one. The ones that have come to fruition. One just needs to study all of them without any bias, which enables one to come to an unbias conclusion.</i><br /><br />Study <i>all of them?</i> I don't know about you, but I have a day job, and there are <i>lots</i> of prophecies out there. I doubt that I could study them as fast as they are generated.<br /><br />But the prophecies I have learned about, from many different Christian apologists, wackos, self-described prophets, as well as a smattering of astrological and heathen believers, all have one thing in common: none of them have come to fruition.<br /><br />So my question is: why should I believe that any of these prophecies are anything other than fantasies?zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-1832271563176472052009-10-18T08:14:41.863-07:002009-10-18T08:14:41.863-07:00Shalom Daniel,
This is a good posting. Sorry for ...Shalom Daniel,<br /><br />This is a good posting. Sorry for being away.<br /><br />KeithKeithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11254093786094787764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-46410335120047783112009-10-18T08:13:22.682-07:002009-10-18T08:13:22.682-07:00Onesimus,
"An interesting book I read many y...Onesimus,<br /><br /><i>"An interesting book I read many years ago was Genesis and the Big Bang by Gerald Schroeder."</i><br /><br />Excellent book. It is presently sitting on my shelf.Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11254093786094787764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-67223329866271077482009-10-18T08:05:37.192-07:002009-10-18T08:05:37.192-07:00Zilch,
"...science itself is neutral.."...Zilch,<br /><br /><i>"...science itself is neutral.."</i><br /><br />This is the only part of that particular sentence that is true. However, if you believe that science is not taught with one biased side in mind, you are either very dis-illusioned and very naive. Both should sides should be taught and the receiver of the message should bare it out according to the weight of the evidence.Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11254093786094787764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-12543168095684391232009-10-18T07:56:51.038-07:002009-10-18T07:56:51.038-07:00Zilch,
"Three, and more to the point: if the...Zilch,<br /><br /><i>"Three, and more to the point: if the government decides to act upon what they consider to be a prophecy, and not on information from the real world, then they are doing exactly what Hitler did: Hitler believed that he was appointed by God to rid the world of Jews. This belief is laughable to just about anyone, but unfortunately it had very real consequences for millions of people. Do you really want to go that route?"</i><br /><br />It is laughable because you take the worldly view of Bilblical Prophesy. Biblical Prophecy is given for two reasons and two reasons only. First, to lay out the plan of G-d and two, to reveal that scripture is a supernatural message from G-d therby prooving G-d exists. It is not for the foretelling of the future.Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11254093786094787764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-51630313779079030482009-10-18T07:49:10.819-07:002009-10-18T07:49:10.819-07:00Two- supposing the government decides to go the Ch...<i>Two- supposing the government decides to go the Christian route: which Christians should they listen to? As you may know, there are differing schools of thought within Christianity about the "end times"- premillenarians, postmillenarians, rapturereadyists, etc. Again, in lack of any real-world evidence for any of these, how are they to decide?</i><br /><br />Actually, they are complimentary rather than divisive as you imply. Satan has done a great job at putting out erroneous information in order to lead weak believe astray. Looking at the pre-trib, mid-trib, etc. from multi-level discernment, you get the complete picture.Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11254093786094787764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-10890331933876292972009-10-18T07:43:33.714-07:002009-10-18T07:43:33.714-07:00Zilch,
For several reasons. One- whose prophecies...Zilch,<br /><br /><i>For several reasons. One- whose prophecies should the government go by- the Christian, the Hindu, or the Scientologist, etc? Since there is an equal lack of evidence that any of these are true, then how is the government to decide? Perhaps by reading chicken entrails?</i><br /><br />That's an easy one. The ones that have come to fruition. One just needs to study all of them without any bias, which enables one to come to an unbias conclusion.Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11254093786094787764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-50336816002547866102009-10-18T07:39:23.613-07:002009-10-18T07:39:23.613-07:00Zilch,
Picky, picky, Matt. If we want to hook thi...Zilch,<br /><br /><i>Picky, picky, Matt. If we want to hook this soul for the Devil, we must proceed slowly.</i><br /><br />Be careful! On the outside chance that G-d truly exists, you should take care of what you say. :-)Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11254093786094787764noreply@blogger.com