tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post6001785629078086972..comments2023-10-24T03:48:03.925-07:00Comments on Pilgrimage: Does God Exist?Daniel (Da Pilgrim)http://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-49888526271755312632009-10-14T00:54:05.072-07:002009-10-14T00:54:05.072-07:00Onesimus says:
What a difference it makes to see ...Onesimus says:<br /><br /><i>What a difference it makes to see your crucified and entombed brother alive again after such a cruel death.<br /><br />An experience like that would certainly wake you up to a truth worth dying for.</i><br /><br />An experience like that would certainly wake me up, too. But I've not had such an experience, and just reading about it in the Bible doesn't convince me that anyone else had that experience, either. Why should I, or anyone else, believe this story?<br /><br />cheers from wintry Vienna, zilchzilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-79557258947903673322009-10-13T14:16:23.843-07:002009-10-13T14:16:23.843-07:00Da Bomb said:
"His own brothers believed He w...Da Bomb said:<br />"His own brothers believed He was God!"<br />------ <br /><br />Prior to His death and resurrection they were not believers and considered that He was deluded. <br />What a difference it makes to see your crucified and entombed brother alive again after such a cruel death. <br /><br />An experience like that would certainly wake you up to a truth worth dying for.Onesimushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413061573637313957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-83907264146163239892009-10-13T01:02:43.790-07:002009-10-13T01:02:43.790-07:00Thanks for the link, BathTub. While I agree with ...Thanks for the link, BathTub. While I agree with Tracie that there may be ulterior motives for claiming to believe what one knows to be a lie, I suspect that it's more common to die for a belief that one sincerely holds. But that does nothing to prove that the belief is true; otherwise one would have to say, for instance, that all the Bahá'í's who have died for their faith prove that Baha'u'llah was a prophet of God, or that all the Branch Davidians who were gunned down at Waco prove that David Koresh was a prophet. That argument just doesn't wash: people have proven, time and again, that they are willing to die for ideas that are simply wrong, or ideals that are wrongheaded.<br /><br />Onesimus, you say:<br /><br /><i>Compared to other people we may very well be very "moral" in the world's view. But our terms of comparison should not be against other men, they need to be against the standard set by our creator.</i><br /><br />This is only true if you've already accepted the existence of God. As I said, though, I don't see any evidence that God exists, so I can only go by my human morals. And by my human morals, TGOTB is a war criminal. What would you say to someone who saved a pregnant dog from being run over, but when her puppies were born, put half of them to death with torture? God is infinitely worse than this, and there's no way, based on my evolution and culture given morality, that I can condone this. <br /><br />cheers from decidedly chilly Vienna, zilch.<br /><br />P.S. Let me know if any of you are in town, or in the SF Bay Area most summers, and lunch is on me.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-66350348217776830882009-10-13T00:01:45.654-07:002009-10-13T00:01:45.654-07:00If you don't want to follow Zilch's recomm...If you don't want to follow Zilch's recommendation and watch the appropriate episode of the Atheist Experience where Tracie Harris discusses in depth the 'die for a lie' idea, she put her write up on the blog <br /><br />http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2009/09/why-martyrs.html<br /><br />It's very big.BathTubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14198295395639562763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-70102176324891718462009-10-12T22:29:47.367-07:002009-10-12T22:29:47.367-07:00and match Him with Old Testament testimonies
&quo...<i>and match Him with Old Testament testimonies</i><br /><br />"testimonies" should be prophecies.Daniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-25172929206341764772009-10-12T22:28:54.785-07:002009-10-12T22:28:54.785-07:00Hey again guys,
But discrepancies can also arise ...Hey again guys,<br /><br /><i>But discrepancies can also arise from a fictional story being retold and evolving into slightly different versions. This happens all the time with, for instance, children's rhymes.</i><br /><br />Yes, but to compare the gospels with children's rhymes is not an accurate comparison. Who would die for children's rhymes? Who could possibly make up such a huge story such as the life of Jesus Christ (In the centre of the Roman empire period)...and match Him with Old Testament testimonies...even write His own lineage! and not be found out? His own brothers believed He was God!<br /><br />NE way.<br />I consider all this evidence of Him.<br />Testimonies and more testimonies. God is alive and working today...keep seeking Him Zilch.<br /><br /><i>But when it comes down to it, all of this doesn't really matter, because I simply don't see any evidence for God's existence, and plenty of evidence that people make up gods all the time. So I will stick to the simpler explanation for now: there is no God.</i><br /><br />To me, the simpler explanation for our universe is that it is designed, rather than an accident.<br />However regarding morality and theology, yes it is more complex.<br /><br />cheers,<br /><br />DanDaniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-76813121936338740182009-10-12T15:34:27.417-07:002009-10-12T15:34:27.417-07:00Da Bomb said:
"I think the problem with manki...Da Bomb said:<br />"I think the problem with mankind is that we don't see sin as really that terrible."<br />-- <br /><br />That's exactly right - and in particular we don't consider OURSELVES as being sinners who are offensive to God. <br /><br />We see ourselves as basically good people who have the potential to do bad things. We also tend to think that as long as the good things outnumber the bad things we're basically decent people.<br /><br />Compared to other people we may very well be very "moral" in the world's view. But our terms of comparison should not be against other men, they need to be against the standard set by our creator.Onesimushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413061573637313957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-14561564224978356912009-10-12T15:27:04.537-07:002009-10-12T15:27:04.537-07:00Zilch said:
“if a human being did what God did, he...Zilch said:<br />“if a human being did what God did, he would be considered a war criminal”<br /><br />There is one major difference: God CREATED the human. Like any creator He has the right to scrap those parts of His work that are not conforming to His expected standards. We don’t like to allow God to have that kind of freedom to deal with His creation because we recognise our own vulnerability should WE not meet His standard of perfection.<br />Israel was commanded to destroy those people because those people were a moral threat to Israel. And that threat was realised when Israel began to worship the idols of the people that they DIDN’T destroy. When Israel disobeyed God’s command they eventually suffered for it by drifting away from the worship of the one true God.<br />We react against those drastic and harsh commands of God because in our proud humanity we think of ourselves as something special. “How dare God deal with mankind in that way? Who does He think He is?” – Er, well, He’s the one who created us and He has TOTAL rights over the things He has created. It is only through His patience and grace that He hasn’t wiped us all out. But instead He came to earth Himself, taking on human form and took the harsh penalty that WE deserved upon Himself, so that we could have a way out of our sinful and disobedient mess that mars the perfection that the perfect God expects of man created in His image.Onesimushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413061573637313957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-67400100143589279172009-10-12T13:44:01.486-07:002009-10-12T13:44:01.486-07:00Da Bomb: thanks for your nicely stated reply. I ...Da Bomb: thanks for your nicely stated reply. I have to say, however, that you haven't told me anything I haven't heard before. Probably my criticisms of the Bible aren't new to you either, for that matter.<br /><br />In any case, I am not convinced. If the Bible has internal discrepancies, it might indeed be because of differing eyewitness accounts- and probably this does explain some of the discrepancies, for instance in the case of differing numbers of soldiers (I forget where this is). But discrepancies can also arise from a fictional story being retold and evolving into slightly different versions. This happens all the time with, for instance, children's rhymes.<br /><br />And as far as 1 Samuel 15 goes, all I can say is, that if a human being did what God did, he would be considered a war criminal. So if one says the God is "good", they must mean something very different from what I or most people mean by "good". By my human standards, which are the only standards I can judge by, TGOTB is by turns nice and nasty, reasonable and capricious. I can easily imagine a God who is nicer, and more just, than the Biblical God.<br /><br />But when it comes down to it, all of this doesn't really matter, because I simply don't see any evidence for God's existence, and plenty of evidence that people make up gods all the time. So I will stick to the simpler explanation for now: there is no God.<br /><br />cheers from wintry Vienna, zilchzilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-10827060137091640532009-10-11T23:07:52.881-07:002009-10-11T23:07:52.881-07:00The quote is from ZilchThe quote is from ZilchDaniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-65166789597931635662009-10-11T23:07:26.003-07:002009-10-11T23:07:26.003-07:00Well written Onesimus...
When I think of contradi...Well written Onesimus...<br /><br /><i>When I think of contradictions in the Bible, I'm not thinking of things like the Proverbs verses that you quote, but rather, say, the two Genesis accounts, with their different orders of Creation, or the different accounts in the four Gospels of who was at the empty tomb. I realize that there is a vast apologetic literature "explaining" these discrepancies, but the contradictions remain contradictions.<br /><br />Errors of fact are obvious: the wrong order of Creation (in both accounts!)</i><br /><br />I know what you mean by contradictions. Here is another one. One gospel account says that one thief got saved on the cross and another says they mocked Jesus. <br />Which is right?<br />Obviously it the story is in between the lines. Such as, they both mocked Jesus first but one became convinced Jesus was the Son of God and repented. Different angles same story.<br /><br />Now, if these seem so obvious to contradict, and if the New Testament is a big hoax created by power hungry people, then I would have done a much better job of making them agree more.<br /><br />Therefore, it is greater evidence FOR the gospels being real then if they all agreed exactly. They all match the big picture but focus/record different details.<br /><br />I hope to do a post about Genesis and old earth views. I have heard very reasonable explanations for the creation accounts. If you want to make them contradictions and not look for possible answers then that is your domain. That is how truths are found...through asking questions.<br /><br />I suppose you mean 1 Samuel 15:2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt.<br />3 ‘Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’"<br /><br />I actually probably don't have and answer but<br />once again, it depends how you look at it and how the context of the Bible views it. This is how we can know who God is and why He does what He does.<br /><br />So, why did God kill the infants? The previous verse states why. It is because of the sins of the people as a whole.<br />This is a rule throughout history, groups of people take responsibility for their group's sin. Israel was punished and sent to Babylon, yet God fearing people got sent there such as Daniel, Ezekiel etc.<br /><br />The reason for deaths and bad things happening is the fact that WE all deserve to be punished as mankind as a whole. None of us should be here. It is only by God's grace that man is still here. <br />Every terrible thing that happens here such as infant death etc is because of our sin as mankind as a whole. God brought judgement on them as a people. <br />Kind of like this phrase,<br />"Not all suffering is caused directly by sin, but all suffering is the cause of sin"<br />Follow?<br /><br />I think the problem with mankind is that we don't see sin as really that terrible. But to God...He can't live with it. We humans go for second best, but God wants the best.<br />We are the problem and we are responsible as a people for evil in general...but also we are responsible individually for our OWN actions.<br /><br />There is universal sin, and individual sin.<br /><br />Well, I really hope that may help. Sorry if I may have left you totally confused, but continue to seek God! (I haven't checked what I have written over again, I just wrote down my thoughts one at a time)<br /><br />cheers<br /><br />DanDaniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-148410134093671872009-10-11T17:51:36.006-07:002009-10-11T17:51:36.006-07:00Zilch said:
As far as my understanding of the Bibl...Zilch said:<br />As far as my understanding of the Bible goes: I am the first to admit that I'm no Bible scholar, but I have read it several times through, in several versions, and so far, God has not spoken to me. In fact, the better I know the Bible, the less I'm inclined to think that it could possibly be the word of an omnimax God, since it has so many contradictions, errors of fact, and outright unfairness and cruelty ordered from on high. But I'm keeping an open mind. <br />----------------<br /><br /><br /><br />The matter of contradictions in the gospel is one of the very things that gives LEGITIMACY to the gospel accounts.<br /><br />They are EYEWITNESS accounts each addressed to very different readers.<br /><br />Firstly no four eyewitnesses to an actual event would describe that event in the same way. There would also be a difference in the “facts” presented (ie who was present at the time). Any account from multiple witnesses that is identical in all aspects would be a very suspect account with the witnesses most likely colluding to smooth out their testimony.<br /><br />Secondly each gospel was written for a different readership. Some were written for believers, some were written to non-believers. Matthew was written for Jews; Luke was addressed to a Gentile. Each was written to emphasise a different aspect of the life of Jesus in a way that was relevant to its intended readership and to address particular issues at the time of writing.<br /><br />The Bible was not a God-dictated book. It is a collection of books written by different men under different circumstances for different purposes. Rather than being contradictory there is a remarkable consistency throughout. Yes there are some “factual” differences between books like the gospels, but are they anything of real significance? <br /><br />The bible is an account of God’s relationship with mankind written by men.<br /><br />It is not God’s autobiography (God did not dictate it word for word).<br />It is not an UNauthorised biography in which the human authors had full control of what was written.<br />I see it as more like an AUTHORISED biography in which men wrote about God and His relationship with mankind, but God had final editorial control and authority over what would be included. However that control did not overrule the personalities and styles of the individual writers.Onesimushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413061573637313957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-73133121631574491342009-10-11T12:05:06.857-07:002009-10-11T12:05:06.857-07:00Daniel: I do try to keep an open mind, but not so ...Daniel: I do try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brain falls out, as they say.<br /><br />When I think of contradictions in the Bible, I'm not thinking of things like the Proverbs verses that you quote, but rather, say, the two Genesis accounts, with their different orders of Creation, or the different accounts in the four Gospels of who was at the empty tomb. I realize that there is a vast apologetic literature "explaining" these discrepancies, but the contradictions remain contradictions.<br /><br />Errors of fact are obvious: the wrong order of Creation (in both accounts!), bats being birds, hyraxes chewing their cud, etc. ad infinitum.<br /><br />For God's cruelty, you can just go to 1 Samuel 15. I've yet to hear an apologetic for God ordering the death of all those babies better than "they will all go to Heaven anyway", which of course can be used to justify any atrocity, or "it was better than just leaving them in the desert to starve after killing their parents". Can you come up with something that makes God look any better than a war criminal here?<br /><br />In any case: what you are saying now, that in order to understand God's message, we have to consider the entire Bible in context, is something very different than saying that the Bible is a source of objective morals. You claim that atheists have no absolute moral standards, and that Christians do. But you have not shown me that any of the standards in the Bible are any more "absolute" or "objective" than any other set of laws or morals, secular or religious.<br /><br />cheers from rainy Vienna, zilchzilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-32890010815192616452009-10-11T01:13:51.635-07:002009-10-11T01:13:51.635-07:00Hey Zilch,
Thank you for keeping an open mind. I ...Hey Zilch,<br /><br />Thank you for keeping an open mind. I hope you really meant it.<br /><br />I don't want to put words in Onesimus's mouth but I would like to point out what my understanding of what he was saying.<br /><br /><i>His revelation is not given as a doctrinal text.<br /><br />A relationship with God is not a relationship with a book. The issue you point out about the variety of interpretations of what the bible says is a very valid point - but it merely highlights a wrong focus. A focus on a book instead of the Creator revealed through that book.</i><br /><br />I think these two statements by him are quite true.<br />The way I see it, God did not give us a book of "chapter 1: God", "chapter 2: Jesus" Chapter 3: Holy Spirit" etc.<br />God gave us a book of life...that is, a revelation of Him through His actions etc. Through this we can know Him and know why He does things.<br />Follow?<br /><br />For example, some atheists point out how God was happy with Lot giving his daughters over to the men in the city to protect some visitors. But because the Bible says it happened does not make what he did as God's will!<br />Nor was it God's will for the man in Judges to make a vow to sacrifice the first thing out of his house!<br />It is a book of LIFE...dumb mistakes by sinful people.<br /><br />You may think it has many contradictions, but we must look at the context and the picture that these stories paint to get the FULL account. Compare scripture to see what God is saying, doing and why He is doing it.<br /><br />I bet you could grab a statement I make and make it contradict something else I have said. Unless you are listening to what I am saying as a whole, you will obviously see all these so called contradictions.<br /><br />For example, here is an obvious contradiction:<br /><br />Proverbs 26:4<br />"4 ¶ Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.<br />5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes."<br /><br />LOL.<br />One verse right after another. But if you look at what the author is trying to say...then you may understand the meaning of what is said.<br /><br />I could be wrong but I assume the meaning of this passage is that the author is trying to say that there is a time and a place for correcting fools.Daniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-89952984329804731062009-10-09T00:31:40.138-07:002009-10-09T00:31:40.138-07:00Onesimus, you say:
When people see the bible as a...Onesimus, you say:<br /><br /><i>When people see the bible as a book of morals they have missed the point.<br /><br />The bible gives us a revelation of God. It shows us who He is, what He is like and what His intentions are. That revelation is given through a historical record of real life situations. Of real life interaction between God and His creation. His revelation is not given as a doctrinal text.</i><br /><br />So you would agree that the Bible is <i>not</i> a source of objective morals? That's the only point I was trying to make here, since this is something Christians often harague atheists with: Christians claim that they have an objective source of morals, and that atheists have none, so atheists are not in a position to say anything whatsoever about morals. Sound familiar?<br /><br />As far as my understanding of the Bible goes: I am the first to admit that I'm no Bible scholar, but I have read it several times through, in several versions, and so far, God has not spoken to me. In fact, the better I know the Bible, the less I'm inclined to think that it could possibly be the word of an omnimax God, since it has so many contradictions, errors of fact, and outright unfairness and cruelty ordered from on high. But I'm keeping an open mind.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-27629471753315242802009-10-08T14:22:23.299-07:002009-10-08T14:22:23.299-07:00When people see the bible as a book of morals they...When people see the bible as a book of morals they have missed the point.<br /><br />The bible gives us a revelation of God. It shows us who He is, what He is like and what His intentions are. That revelation is given through a historical record of real life situations. Of real life interaction between God and His creation. His revelation is not given as a doctrinal text.<br /><br />A relationship with God is not a relationship with a book. The issue you point out about the variety of interpretations of what the bible says is a very valid point - but it merely highlights a wrong focus. A focus on a book instead of the Creator revealed through that book.<br /><br />Unfortunately not many turn to the bible for the revelation God gives. Instead most will sit back and let their church or their ministers tell them what God is like and what to believe.<br /><br />Most of what passes for Christanity today is human tradition passed on through church teaching to people who haven't searched the scriptures for themselves. Who haven't trusted the Holy Spirit (God Himself) to teach them from those scriptures.<br /><br />Therefore the understanding of most people is based on what they have been told that the bible says.Onesimushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413061573637313957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-9685188277513042382009-10-08T03:26:42.327-07:002009-10-08T03:26:42.327-07:00Da Bomb: you still have not addressed my point. H...Da Bomb: you still have not addressed my point. How can you call the morals of the Bible "objective" when you can't tell me exactly what they mean? Sorry, I don't see any "bull's eye" in Scripture, but just a bunch of rules and strictures that are all subject to interpretation- just like any other set of laws, be they religious or secular. No objectivity there, unless you can tell me, for instance, exactly what "thou shalt not kill" means, and prove that you have the "right" meaning.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-68421972627436976262009-10-08T02:54:12.765-07:002009-10-08T02:54:12.765-07:00There are some so called christians who claim that...There are some so called christians who claim that homosexuality is alright...yet God claims straight forward that it is WRONG.<br /><br />NOT ALL CHRISTIANS are true followers of the WAY.<br /><br />God is the base for morality, He wrote the Bible. When people misinterpret the Bible, it does not change what the Bible says or change what God thinks nor does it change the fact that the Bible (God's rules) is objective.<br /><br />God leaves gray areas up to what our conscience tells us (Romans 14) and what his Holy Spirit teaches us...we are on a walk.<br /><br />BUT, there are clearer guidelines which tell us what is right and wrong eg: <br />1 Corinthians 69:9 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,<br />10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."<br /><br />If you cannot aim for a bulls eye then how can you tell how near the bulls eye you are?<br /><br />What is the absolute universal bulls eye for the human race if there is no God/Judge? Who decides?Daniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-80572037850573425352009-10-08T00:57:34.042-07:002009-10-08T00:57:34.042-07:00Da Bomb, Onesimus- you still haven't addressed...Da Bomb, Onesimus- you still haven't addressed my claim: Christian morality is not objective, because the Bible can be interpreted in many different ways, and no one knows which way is correct (if any). Of course, most Christians claim they know the "right" meaning of Scriptural injunctions, but as far as I can see, there's no way of knowing who is right (if anyone).<br /><br />So please tell me: what is "objective" about a system of morals no one can agree on, and with no way of knowing who's right?zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-25682625378171107432009-10-07T17:10:11.724-07:002009-10-07T17:10:11.724-07:00True, quite true Onesimus.True, quite true Onesimus.Daniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-89356288026375750382009-10-07T14:33:21.051-07:002009-10-07T14:33:21.051-07:00zilch said:
"So all those people who called t...zilch said:<br />"So all those people who called themselves Christians were simply mistaken- according to you."<br /><br />That is nothing like what I said or even implied.<br />I rarely apply the term 'Christian" to myself because I see that the word has lost it original meaning.<br />When qualifying descriptions are required ("born again" Christian for example) to distinguish what kind of "Christian" a person is then it's clear that there's a problem with the language being used.<br /><br />True Christians are those who put their trust in Jesus and His ways. That is not such a hard thing to determine. Most of the confusion and disagreement under the "Christian" umbrella arises when people want the benefits provided by Jesus while also wanting to do things their own way instead of His.Onesimushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413061573637313957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-20131004468278816752009-10-07T01:40:56.565-07:002009-10-07T01:40:56.565-07:00Just because some "christians" misinterp...<i>Just because some "christians" misinterpret the Bible or more accurately...make it say what they want it to say, does not mean God's rules are not absolute.<br />God will judge.</i><br /><br />Good: God will judge. As I said, I can't prove that God does not have absolute morals (although if the Bible is God's word, the meaning of "absolute" is stretched taut to the snapping point). But because here on Earth, as you admit, there's a lot of disagreement about exactly what the Bible means, the term "absolute" (or "objective") morality is meaningless.<br /><br /><i>Hitler had no help from disciples of Jesus Christ.<br /><br />Your comments above are a good example of why I rarely consider myself to be a "Christian". It is an overused, overrated term that is far removed from its original usage.<br /><br />I am a follower of Jesus, not the follower of a religion named "Christianity".</i><br /><br />So all those people who called themselves Christians were simply mistaken- according to you. What about Mormons? Unitarians? Postmillenarians? Jehovah's Witnesses? Catholics? Eastern Orthodox? Jews? Snake handlers? Do you know which are "true" Christians, in every case? No you don't, nor does anyone else, except God if He exists. Since we don't have access to Christian objective morality, even if it exists, then to talk of Christians having an objective basis for their morals, and atheists a subjective basis, is simply false.<br /><br />As I said: no one agrees exactly on what is moral in every situation, but there's enough agreement on basics to build societies that work: not all the time, but they got us where we are today, for better and for worse. If we want to improve them, then we have to work together to find common ground, with love and reason.<br /><br />cheers from unseasonably warm Vienna, zilchzilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-9241337119250643302009-10-06T14:50:55.040-07:002009-10-06T14:50:55.040-07:00Hitler had no help from disciples of Jesus Christ....Hitler had no help from disciples of Jesus Christ.<br /><br />Your comments above are a good example of why I rarely consider myself to be a "Christian". It is an overused, overrated term that is far removed from its original usage.<br /><br />I am a follower of Jesus, not the follower of a religion named "Christianity".Onesimushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413061573637313957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-50510309315860616742009-10-06T14:49:06.823-07:002009-10-06T14:49:06.823-07:00Just because some "christians" misinterp...Just because some "christians" misinterpret the Bible or more accurately...make it say what they want it to say, does not mean God's rules are not absolute.<br />God will judge.Daniel (Da Pilgrim)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17590499058101108349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5300869586016541037.post-35396893265860374732009-10-06T13:04:29.995-07:002009-10-06T13:04:29.995-07:00Onesimus says:
And did Hitler personally murder e...Onesimus says:<br /><br /><i>And did Hitler personally murder every one of those 6 million jews - not to mention the millions of others?<br /><br />Of course not. Therefore it was NOT Hitler "on his own".</i><br /><br />No, Hitler got a lot of help. From Christians.<br /><br />Of course you will say right away that those helping Hitler were not "true" Christians. But who are you, or is anyone, to say exactly who is or is not a "true" Christian? There are around thirty thousand different Christian sects, each of which has its own interpretation of what it means to be a Christians. Any claim that Christianity has "absolute" or "objective" morals is wishful thinking. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, you believers still have to make hard decisions, you will inevitably disagree with your fellow believers sometimes, and Scripture will not always tell you what to do. Welcome to the club.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.com